# The Brits, the Scots , the Finns, the Danes, the Swedes, **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608 "2010-08-08T17:27:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/81 "2010-08-10T01:42:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I always took “Jerry” to refer only to the German military personnel. Kraut was used to refer to any German. But I could be wrong… No, you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/82 "2010-08-10T01:49:22Z")
my mistake ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/83 "2010-08-10T01:59:35Z")
If you want a further cite that ‘JAP’ as a plain abbreviation (not just used as a slur) is considered offensive, see the JACL[sup]\*[/sup] page on [responses](http://www.jacl.org/advocacy/response.htm), under August 2008: > [@](#): > > San Francisco Chapter - August 2008: The San Francisco Chapter of the JACL responded to the marketing of the Lingo Electronic Talking Translator by Brookstone Company, Inc. , which displays the term “JAP” along with “ENG” on the screen when the owner wishes to have a word or phrase translated. > > ``` > "The abbreviation for Japanese is 'JPN' as 'JAP' is an offensive or derogatory term," said San Francisco Chapter President Hiroshi Shimizu in a letter to the President and CEO of Brookstone Company, Inc. The San Francisco Chapter requested that Brookstone Company, Inc. provide the manufacturer's contact information so that JACL can notify them about the offensive nature of the term and request they change the the term "JAP" tp "JPN." The San Francisco Chapter also requested that Brookestone discontinue advertising the translator until that has been done. > > ``` (see also report on Zagat from the same month, among others). As for why, Americans of Japanese descent I’ve spoken to gave the same explanation **Miller** did at the start of this thread - it was used historically in that way, and has no need to be revived now. As for a (relatively) unremarkable use of ‘Paki’ in the US, there was our own President in 2002 (even if he’s not noted as a master of elocution, most people didn’t think it odd) > [@](#): > > I don’t believe the situation is defused yet, but I do believe there is a way to do so, and we are working hard to convince both the Indians and the Pakis there’s a way to deal with their problems without going to war. [(full transcript)](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/07/bn.02.html) In my opinion familiarity with the offensive use in Britain means that it will rarely get used in the US nowadays. I don’t think it’d produce a huge reaction if it was used in conversation. \*Japanese American Citizens League. Incidentally, not entirely well-liked by some Japanese Americans for historical reasons, but as I understand it their advocacy is at least mildly appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/84 "2010-08-10T02:33:44Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > > Are the Brits a race? If so, then you are entitled to call the Jap anese a race. > > [2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Race) On that basis you have the American race as well. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Stentor\_2.5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@Stentor\_2.5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stentor_2.5)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/85 "2010-08-10T02:43:33Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > “Jew” is an acceptable term for a person of Jewish descent, whereas “Jew” is a damnable slur. “Jew” is acceptable when used as a noun and unacceptable when used as an adjective or verb. Compare “The doctor can’t work on Saturday because he is a Jew,” with “I just talked to that Jew lawyer,” and even more offensively, “Don’t try to Jew me on this.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/86 "2010-08-10T03:12:34Z")
I’m pretty sure anyone who thinks _Punjabi_ is a synonym for _Sikh_ is beyond help. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/87 "2010-08-10T03:22:25Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Seems as if the Japanese couldn’t care less. > > We don’t! > -Shimono-sama No real Jap would refer to themselves as X-sama. (where X is the family name) 🙂 And I’ll keep using Jap until they stop calling me Gaijin. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/88 "2010-08-10T04:22:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m pretty sure anyone who thinks _Punjabi_ is a synonym for _Sikh_ is beyond help. Someone who says that in S Asia will be shot!:eek: Who thinks that? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/89 "2010-08-10T04:23:04Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Who thinks that? [Our dear OP](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12779562&postcount=20), who also seems to think (or feel it is worth pretending to think) “Sikh” is an offensive term despite acknowledging that it is the standard term used and expected by Sikhs themselves. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/90 "2010-08-10T05:11:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m pretty sure anyone who thinks _Punjabi_ is a synonym for _Sikh_ is beyond help. > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > > [@AK84](#): > > > > Who thinks that? > > [Our dear OP](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12779562&postcount=20), who also seems to think (or feel it is worth pretending to think) “Sikh” is an offensive term despite acknowledging that it is the standard term used and expected by Sikhs themselves. It isn’t all that hard to ignore context, set up a strawman and put down a fellow poster. Every Sikh in British Columbia has either been born in the Punjab or they have ancestry there. Of course not every Punjabi in the world is a Sikh but I never said that did I? And as far as “Sikh” being offensive, I don’t think I ever said that either. The name is used in low brow offensive discourse simply because no one has been able to come up with a name that is more conducive to express offence. ---
**Author:** ![GHO57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df788c/32.png) [@GHO57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GHO57)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/91 "2010-08-10T05:22:00Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@Tamerlane](#): > > > > [2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Race) > > On that basis you have the American race as well. Whatever. Yea… but that’s a BIG race, check this out 😃 I live in a duplex… So I’m 1. “_united_” with the neighbor 2. legally \*classified \*as dual occupants 3. lived here for several years… we got \*history \* 4. share _nationality_ So, we’re both of the me-and-my-neighbour-race Funny thing, he’s a Moroccan immigrant… and I’m of Finnish descent. So we’re completely different in appearance… but apparently the same race. How cool is that? …in case it wasn’t clear, argument ad dictionarium is a pet peeve of mine. With enough digging (and creative equivocation), it’s possible to support any claim by “it’s in the dictionary”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/92 "2010-08-10T05:34:23Z")
**Really Not All That Bright** and **Indistinguishable** , this is not the BBQ Pit and your off-topic personal jabs at other posters are not welcome. Knock it off. EVERYONE else, the next time I see snide remarks aimed at posters, I’m going to start handing out Warnings. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/93 "2010-08-10T05:35:32Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > And I’ll keep using Jap until they stop calling me Gaijin. Since no poster is calling you Gaijin on this board, you will refrain from calling anyone “Jap” on this board. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/94 "2010-08-10T05:48:06Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > …in case it wasn’t clear, argument ad dictionarium is a pet peeve of mine. With enough digging (and creative equivocation), it’s possible to support any claim by “it’s in the dictionary”. I understand, but this is not an obscure definition. The association of ethnicity with race is an old, old concept and though no longer the dominant academic view, when referring to racist terminology the two are still being used pretty much interchangeably, [as in here](http://www.rsdb.org/). It’s a certainly a semantic nitpick, but saying “Jap” can’t ever be a racist insult because the Japanese are some kind of subgroup of some larger racial division is frankly a much sillier bit of nitpicking. It’s like saying someone who slings around a term like “camel jockey” can’t be considered a racist because the Arabs aren’t a race. Ethnic slur or racial slur - in common parlance they are generally one and the same. Parsing the difference is IMO a bit overly reductionist and falls into the same general category of over-literalism as saying Arabs can’t be anti-semites because they speak a Semitic language. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/95 "2010-08-10T13:09:54Z")
Good luck with this thread. Six years ago Czarcasm called me out for the same term, in this[thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=287796&highlight=japs+killing+popular). In the way we have come to expect from that person as a moderator, he explained his reasoning, and was never blunt to the point of being over bearing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/96 "2010-08-10T15:31:00Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > > [@ouryL](#): > > > > Seems as if the Japanese couldn’t care less. > > > > We don’t! > > -Shimono-sama > > No real Jap would refer to themselves as X-sama. (where X is the family name) 🙂 > > And I’ll keep using Jap until they stop calling me Gaijin. Well, it seems that “gaijin” is not verboten around here. Seeing as you are both here, Does Japanese society frown upon the use of ethnic/racial slurs ? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/97 "2010-08-11T01:02:48Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > [@Isamu](#): > > > > No real Jap would refer to themselves as X-sama. (where X is the family name) 🙂 > > > > And I’ll keep using Jap until they stop calling me Gaijin. > > Well, it seems that “gaijin” is not verboten around here. > > Seeing as you are both here, Does Japanese society frown upon the use of ethnic/racial slurs ? Yes, polite Japanese society avoids (Japanese) racial ethnic slurs. There’s lots of them, but you’ll hardly ever see or hear them used. But it’s not that cut and dried. Jap is not really an ethnic slur outside the US, in my opinion, and to the extent that it has become disliked in Japan, that dislike is merely borrowed from the US dislike. (They’ve learned not to like it because the US media had told them not to like it - has told then it’s some kind of insult). And some Japanese defend the use of “Nigga” in Japan because "Japan doesn’t have a history of racial discrimination against “Niggas, so it’s OK for us to use it”. Go figure. In my opinion “gaijin” is worse than “Jap” although it’s often not used in a way that is meant to cause offense. (This is something not easily understood by your average American/westerner, where racism is of a different nature. ) The use of gaijin/gaikokkujin is 100% supported in Japan because the words are not meant to cause offense. That’s great but my objections to being called so are many, for example: 1. It allows people to automatically treat me differently in any social or business setting, most often for the worse. 2. It creates (or reinforces) an absolute us vs. them mentality, based on looks alone. 3. It’s meaning is ill-defined and inconsistent among the very people who use it. (For example, who is a gaikokujin? Someone who looks foreign (many people would agree with this), or someone who is not a Japanese national? (Many people would agree with this) etc .etc. Ask 10 people and you’ll get 5 different answers. But the term is used in law, so what is the real definition? No one knows. 4. It makes my life uncomfortable and difficult in many ways. I could go on…but I’m tired. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/98 "2010-08-11T01:16:40Z")
It sounds like “gaijin” is worse in your opinion because it refers to _you_. The functional characteristics you describe are pretty much universal among ethnic slurs. Somehow that shoe is always less comfortable on the other foot, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/99 "2010-08-11T01:45:37Z")
> [@GHO57](#): > > I live in a duplex… > > So I’m > > 1. “_united_” with the neighbor > 2. legally \*classified \*as dual occupants > 3. lived here for several years… we got \*history \* > 4. share _nationality_ > > So, we’re both of the me-and-my-neighbour-race > > Funny thing, he’s a Moroccan immigrant… and I’m of Finnish descent. So we’re completely different in appearance… but apparently the same race. How cool is that? –A nation? says Bloom. A nation is the same people living in the same place. –By God, then, says Ned, laughing, if that’s so I’m a nation for I’m living in the same place for the past five years. So of course everyone had the laugh at Bloom and says he, trying to muck out of it: –Or also living in different places. –That covers my case, says Joe. (James Joyce, _Ulysses_) ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608/100 "2010-08-11T01:50:00Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > It sounds like “gaijin” is worse in your opinion because it refers to _you_. The functional characteristics you describe are pretty much universal among ethnic slurs. Somehow that shoe is always less comfortable on the other foot, isn’t it? It refers to 98% of the world’s population. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-brits-the-scots-the-finns-the-danes-the-swedes/549608.md?page=6)