# The Bullshit term "job creators" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788 "2011-09-19T03:50:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/181 "2011-09-28T18:31:47Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I would think the biggest job creators would be the small (and I mean 2 - 10 employees) business owner, who is NOT rich, and who does NOT make $1 million/year. Actually its not small businesses that create jobs, Its new businesses that create jobs. A lot of new businesses are small busiensses on their way to becoming bigger businesses and they create the jobs. But even then they are only meeting a market demand. If the market doesn’t have enough demand, you could tax me at ZERO percent and still won’t hire anyone because that would just be money wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/182 "2011-09-28T18:35:20Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The job creators are the small business men. No class of people creates jobs. Its the amrket that creates the demand that creates jobs. > [@](#): > > They do not care about the public good. They just want more and more money. That’s not their job. The job of a corporation isn’t to look out for the public good. Looking out for the public good is more the province of governments and non-profits. When a corporation maximizes profits, it is doing exactly what it was built to do. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/183 "2011-09-28T18:44:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > All the people in this thread talking about how demand creates jobs are only looking at half the story. > > Sure, a sandwich shop (and the jobs it provides) would not exist if no one wanted sandwiches. But, the desire for sandwiches doesn’t cause a sandwich shop to spontaneously come into existence. Someone has to perceive the demand for sandwiches and take a risk by spending money to open the shop. If they don’t like the business environment and/or the tax policy of the jurisdiction, then they won’t open the sandwich shop despite the demand. > > So, demand isnecessary but not sufficient for the creation of jobs–you also need a, dare I say it, “job creator.” During a recession demand is the far more important half of the story. During a recession here are already plenty of sandwich shops that are running at half capacity. The investments have already been made and the risk has already been taken but there isn’t enough demand to keep the sandwich shop fully occupied. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/184 "2011-09-28T18:47:00Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I disagree wholeheartedly with whomever said consumers are job creators. Where do consumers get their income to pay for the product or service a company provides? Their jobs. Who provides said jobs? Businesses. Wait a minute, where would the business be without the consumers? Right now is there a shortage of businesses (supply) or a shortage of consumers (demand)? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/185 "2011-09-28T18:49:35Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > If Obama was always yakking away in Portuguese or something I would understand Beohner’s lack of understanding. But no, pubbies simply can’t comprehend math, as I have long suspected. No, they understand mat6h pretty well, they are hoping you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/186 "2011-09-28T18:56:33Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I didn’t have time to read through all four pages of this thread, so I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet but a very shady aspect of the “job creator” propaganda is that Republicans cry foul at the mention of raising taxes on rich people or “corporations” (as Mitt Romney pointed out, corporations are people too). Yet _ **anyone** _ can become a “corporation”, and thus enjoy a 15% tax rate, rather than 35% that they’d pay as an individual (many rich people do this just to pay lower taxes). So the “job creators” or the “small businesses” are in many instances NOT real businesses at all, just rich individuals exploiting tax loopholes. Thats not really the way it works. Dividends are taxed at 15% to the individual but before they can extract those dividends at a 15% tax rate the corporation itself pays a 35% tax rate. Most small businesses are not taxed as corporations. The income is taxed directly to the owner. Warren Buffett pays 15% because he derives most of his income from capital gains. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/187 "2011-09-28T19:01:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > This guy is not in the top tax bracket, and not likely to be in the top tax bracket, and is just another middle class people the Republicans are screwing over. He is indeed a job creator. Now, is the CEO who is in the top bracket and who just laid off 20,000 workers a job creator? Well its not his first sandwich shop. He’s got about a dozen other Subway franchises. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/188 "2011-09-28T19:06:59Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > And when he gets a mortgage, loan, or VC money, where does this money come from? Obviously, it comes from people who have an excess of it (those rich bastards) who want to invest it in this entrepreneur’s idea. But there is risk. The entrepreneur could fail and they could lose their money. Therefore they require a certain return in order for the risk to be worthwhile. > > And if you increase the tax on that return, whatever the numbers, there are certain ventures that are desired by the public, and would create jobs, that simply will NOT get started because of that tax increase. It’s simply economics and I don’t know why your side won’t admit it. > > You should at least say, “Yes, it will cost jobs, but it is necessary to reduce the deficit.” This is not true during a recession. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/189 "2011-09-28T19:08:36Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Are you serious? Or are you pretending to be stupid for laughs? > > When I said “spontaneously spring into existence,” I meant “without its creation by any human.”. So, imagine some people sitting around wanting a sandwich and then BING a sandwich shop is just created without any human having decided to create it. That’s what you demand people are positing occurs. > > Also, the idea of “if I don’t start a sandwich shop then someone else inevitably will as long as there is a demand” is bullshit. You may be the only one who (I) accurately perceives the demand (ie, is it for hoagies or dipped beef) and/or has the resources and willingness to respond to the demand. > > In any event, that’s just a side comment–it doesn’t matter for present purposes whether ýou or someone else starts a restaurant. If it gets started it’s because someone started–the demand did not cause it to start witout any starter. During a recession, the sandwich shop already exists. It just isn’t making and selling as many sandwiches as it could because not enough people are buying sandwiches. All you need is increased demand not more sandwich shops. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/190 "2011-09-28T19:15:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Someone MAY fill the niche if it is profitable to do so. Raising taxes and increasing regulation may make it unprofitable to do so. This is the whole idea with discussing job creators–we don’t want to make it unprofitable to fulfill demand because if we do then everyone is worse off. We’re talking about taxes on profits. I don’t understand the proposed taxes to be confiscatory so while my after tax income from an additional $100 of profit would only be $60 and instead of $65 it is still not unprofitable is it? Regulatiosn are an entirely different story. If regulations are a net negative for society then they are bad but most of the regulations that people seem upset about these days seem to be environmental regulations that eliminate externalities. So if I regulate away the ability to increase profits by $100 in order to prevent $200 of environmental damage, isn’t that a good regulation? I suppose there are some whackos who place unreasonably high values on the environment but I don’t see why the pollution creators shouldn’t absorb the cost of that pollution into their products. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/191 "2011-09-28T19:23:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Sure, for certain values of “many, many.” Are you willing to acknowledge that the vast majority of jobs were created by people making over $250k a year? Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/192 "2011-09-28T19:24:17Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I never said that businesses create jobs in a vacuum–I’ve fully acknowledged the role of demand. But you keep refusing to acknowledge that demand by itself doesn’t create jobs–a job is created by someone in response to the demand. It’s not like the owner of a business shows up one day and there’s a new guy working there who says “yeah, so there’s more demand for your business’s products, so here I am.” If you raise taxes on the job creator, he may decide not to create a job even thogh there was an increase in demand (because the tax increase may make it unprofitable to do so). Right now we don’t need more supply, we need more demand. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/193 "2011-09-28T19:25:30Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You aren’t taking cost of capital into account. The difference between keeping 72% or keeping 75% can be the difference between an investment with a return below or above the business owner’s cost of capital. If there is cost of capital then its not profit, now is it? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/194 "2011-09-28T19:31:27Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, again, you aren’t taking into account cost of capital and the business person’s decision about how much they want to make from new investment. Taxes decrease the amount the owner gets to take home–at some point that amount for any particular investment may no longer be high enough for the owner to want to make the investment. > > And that’s just the simple first-order effect. Broader effects include contributing to uncertainty (ie, the owner may not want to make new investments out of a fear that taxes will be raised) and encouraging tax-avoidance behavior. Combine all this and he increase in tax rates may not operate to actually increase taxes paid at all. At these rates there is no serious debate about the matter and you probably know it. If your point is that tax rates might reduce the after tax rates of return on capital, thats a good point but when you are talking about variable costs such as labor costs, its not such a good point. There is not much of an investment component to hiring an additional employee to help make more sandiwches, remember we’re ina recession, the sandwich shops already exist, they are just underutilized. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/195 "2011-09-28T19:34:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > That sums up my position in a nutshell. If you raise taxes, those few jobs on the borderline will not be created. That’s all I have said, and it really is basic economics: taxes are a necessity, but they also reduce market efficiency. Therefore be very careful about raising taxes. (And God forbid have a small government which requires fewer taxes) > > At least mention the market inefficiency without a hand waiving about how businessmen can afford it. Some might be able to afford to take a loss, but they damned sure aren’t going to out of the goodness of their heart. They will pass on that opportunity so that no job is created. Nobody on your side of the debate will acknowledge that. > > Many keep squawking that it’s only 3%. Fine, but that 3% will be the go/no-go difference in many investors’ choices on whether to proceed. There are situations where money spent by the government is more efficient than money spent by sandwich shop owners. Roads and bridges frequently fall into this category. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/196 "2011-09-28T19:36:30Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > gonz–wrong again, bub, as per usual. I’m abandoning this thread because luci’s post made me realize who I’m talking with. There’s just no amount of talking sense to you people that is ever going to get past the emotional attachment you have to the way you think the world works. Poe’s law? Whoosh? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/197 "2011-09-28T19:37:57Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Rover has no argument. he is racking his brain to think of something that will fit his preconceptions. There is no evidence and no data to support him. But as usual, he says it makes sense to him, therefore it should make sense to you. Only he is wrong, There is nothing to back him. > Business is sitting on about 3 trillion dollars and financial pros are begging them to let go. > Rover uses this board to practice lawyerly argumentation. Lately he has been on a losing streak. The problem is not RRR’s lack of trying, its the weakness of his premises. It is his attachment to his false ideological and economic beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/198 "2011-09-28T19:39:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: I figured I would be honest and open about abandoning this thread instead of just slinking away and never replying. But, like I said, count it as a victory if you must (and really, who could blame a guy like you for looking for any little victory in life that he can?). In other words, you’re quitting while you’re behind. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/199 "2011-09-28T19:40:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well its not his first sandwich shop. He’s got about a dozen other Subway franchises. The example was of a guy opening up his first. But even for the Subway franchisee, if his new Subway shop drives a mom and pop shop out of business, is he a net job creator? And you’re hardly the first person in this thread to say demand rules. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788/200 "2011-09-28T20:12:26Z")
**Damuri Ajashi** , is there any way to get you to stop the habit of posting 18 times in a row? Maybe read the whole thread before you post, because some of your points may have been made already, and you will only really need to post a couple of times. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullshit-term-job-creators/596788.md?page=11)