# The bullying of Frank Burns in M\*A\*S\*H
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Tags:** tv-shows-scripted
**Created:** [October 6, 2020, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329 "2020-10-06T10:53:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/61 "2020-10-06T21:01:57Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#):
>
> After enjoying the show in reruns, I read several of the books many years ago. They are considerably more rollicking and one suspects more sexist than the later TV show.
>
> In the book, IIRC, Hawkeye, still from rural Maine (“finest kind”), was very relieved when he met his colleagues and none of them considered themselves to be a preternaturally exceptional surgeon. Burns was from a very snobbish and pecunious background and very much looked down on the other surgeons and even the military in general.
You’re referring to the real MASH books, not the spinoffs. My take is that Hawkeye was written to be more and more unlike Alan Alda. IIRC, the last one had him telling a story about how he, when the A bomb designated for Hiroshima didn’t work, convinced a sea serpent to fill in. Not Alan Aldaish at all.
Plus the usual curse word was “Democrat.”
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/62 "2020-10-06T21:02:51Z")
> [@silenus](#):
>
> Not to mention the other shift of surgeons, which stopped getting mentioned around Season 2.
Now I want to see “MASH: Second Shift”, ala ST Lower Decks. The less-that wacky stories about the people who are sleeping while the events in the episodes are happening. For all we know, they don’t even know who Hawkeye and BJ and Frank even are, outside of seeing therm in passing in the mess hall.
Their understanding of what was going on at the unit might be in stark contrast. Everyone writes themselves as the star of their own life. “We did some good work, but these bozos on the day shift kept messing everything up”. (husband to wife: I got a part as a gravedigger in some play called “Hamlet”. “What’s it about?” It’s about a gravedigger that meets a prince.)
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### Author:  [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/63 "2020-10-06T21:32:30Z")
There was one show in later seasons where Hawkeye has been given command of the 4077th and he has to pull rank and use military discipline and rules because not everyone can just do as they please. To this Margaret goes “I wish Frank was here to be able to see this”.
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### Author:  [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/64 "2020-10-06T21:37:00Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> Frank was the bully.
This!
Frank was a bully, an asshole, and an overall horses ass.
Hawkeye, Trapper, and BJ are what I like to call “Bully busters”, those that hit the bully right between the eyes. The fact that Frank outranked them all yet couldn’t rein in their behavior solidifies his incompetence and lack of credibility. Watching a bully get his just desserts is entertaining.
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### Author:  [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2020, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/65 "2020-10-06T22:03:37Z")
Some reasons we’re supposed to dislike Frank:
1. He outranks Hawkeye and sidekick. I assumed this was because “Army,” which is to say he salutes, gets a high gloss on the boots, etc. and probably sucks up to superiors etc. Hawkeye just wants to be the best doctor he can be.
2. He got Hotlips. It isn’t that Hawkeye really wants her; he’s more the “different partner each week” kinda guy. But there’s one he can’t get. (Sally Kellerman would have been a greater loss than Loretta Swit, IMO). It’s because they’re both so “military” and think others are beneath them.
3. He married his wife for her money. Meanwhile he’s got this hot mistress…
4. He’s a tattle tale, officer square nuts, total party pooper. And he shares their tent so they can’t always distance themselves as easily.
5. When he gets to be in charge, it ain’t good…the power goes right to his head.
Around the time Hotlips got married, I think they worked in some sympathy for him. Radar called Frank’s mom and made it look like she called him. Frank says something to the effect that his “friend” was only pretending to like him…like dad…
Hawkeye said something to her about not talking so loud and flaunting her engagement and she said something like, YOU are sticking up for him? And he replied that they never hit Frank when he was down…only when his back was turned.
And in a later episode Hawkeye said Frank Burns was no Donald Penobscott; she replied that Donald was no Frank Burns, either.
Yeah, they should have let Frank win a few. The idea that Larry Linville left because there was nothing left to do with Frank, though? I completely disagree.
After Margaret’s wedding, Frank lost his mind for awhile. He was in Tokyo kissing strange women on the street or whatevs and ended up needing a psych eval. IMO at that point, you can’t predict which Frank would be returning to the 4077th. A playboy? A quiet thinker? A religious zealot? A con artist? A regular guy? A daredevil with a death wish? Would he go around like a 12 stepper, apologizing for past transgressions?
Or maybe he’d be really bitter and declare war on the female of the species. I think he could have changed into a lot of things.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/66 "2020-10-06T22:34:21Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#):
>
> There was a time in the US when most better restaurants wouldn’t serve women in the evenings if they came in without a man escorting them
I can remember in the mid 70s going for lunch at a restaurant in Boston where there was the main areas downstairs, and upstairs a smaller dining room for parties with women along with their menfolks. Chemo brain prevents me from remembering the name, but perhaps Locke-Ober?
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### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2020, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/67 "2020-10-06T22:36:35Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> but perhaps Locke-Ober
You got it in one.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [October 6, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/68 "2020-10-06T22:39:16Z")
And I am assuming it is proabaly closed, like Durgin Park _sigh_
At least I can make a cromulent corned beef boil, and indian pudding =) And I can be snippy when I serve dinnner =)
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### Author:  [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/69 "2020-10-07T01:35:02Z")
> [@RitterSport](#):
>
> I’d guess that the army folks in M_A_S\*H were, if anything, less sexist and racist than the army was back in the '50s or even the '70s.
Less drinking on the show, too. They made it sound like they drank a lot on the show, but I would actually say they kept it together pretty well. It would shock me very little if many doctors and nurses were drinking through the day and during rounds, etc.
I say that with zero judgment. War is hell. Pure hell.
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### Author:  [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/70 "2020-10-07T01:36:30Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#):
>
> Some reasons we’re supposed to dislike Frank:
He’s worse in the movie. He told that one guy, “Congratulations. You killed him,” after the kid was not quick enough to get the right medication/injection.
Frank is the worst, especially Robert Duvall’s version.
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### Author:  [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/71 "2020-10-07T09:26:07Z")
As for Burns’ skill as a doctor, I think there are contradictory statements. By and large he is surely, and often, described as incompetent, even a threat to the patients he treats. But there are some instances in which people talk more approvingly of his skill. In the pilot episode, Blake says to Hawkeye something to the effect of “Burns is a fine doctor, we need him”. Of course, this may just be a half-hearted attempt on Blake’s side to make Hawkeye and Trapper tone down their pranks a little, but it is something. And then, in another season 1 episode, “Major Fred Dobbs” (in which the rumour spreads that there is gold in the mountains around the camp), Hawkeye and Trapper are wondering whether they’ve gone too far after both Burns and Houlihan announce their intention to be transferred away. In a scene towards the end, Hawkeye and Trapper say to Burns after surgery that he had been doing some good work in the operating room, and they seem sincere in saying so.
But as I said, I’ve only seen season 1 so far; maybe the issue of Burns’ incompetence is clearer and less ambiguous in later episodes.
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### Author:  [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/72 "2020-10-07T09:29:24Z")
In one episode Burns is high on some kind of anaesthetic or something, and confesses he cheated in his final medical exams.
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### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/73 "2020-10-07T10:19:09Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#):
>
> He outranks Hawkeye and sidekick. I assumed this was because “Army,” which is to say he salutes, gets a high gloss on the boots, etc. and probably sucks up to superiors etc. Hawkeye just wants to be the best doctor he can be.
It’s because he’s “Army,” but it’s got less to do with saluting, than with completing specific things that apply to promotions points, and putting together packets that allow a person to apply for a promotions.
Captain is the rank that someone with a medical degree got upon completing initial training in the military. None of the other doctors have risen above that, other than Winchester. Burns did because he did things, and they were probably not hard things, but they took time and attention to detail, that allowed him to put together paperwork in order to apply for a promotion. Additionally, since he was a volunteer, he may have had more time in service, and been able to apply for a promotion before the time the series is supposed to start, while none of the others have.
Winchester would have had to apply for a promotion as well-- unless he has other education on top of his MD, which may be the case for him, since his family could afford to support him in school for a long time. If he has a lot of additional training, or is an MD/PhD, he might have qualified for extra rank. But on the other hand, he is also pompous enough to want to advance in rank to go to the trouble of applying for promotion in order to have the highest rank in the OR.
I have no idea how Henry Blake became a Lt. Colonel. Maybe he accidentally tripped, and exposed a hidden cache of enemy munitions, and got a field promotion. Or maybe he was in the ROTC to pay for college and medical school. It does require discipline to do that, but not leadership skills.
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### Author:  [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/74 "2020-10-07T11:19:57Z")
I know some doctors got their training from the military but I assumed these guys were drafted. Charles was, certainly, and hoped to get out via his family’s influence.
> [@](#):
>
> Charles graduated Summa Cum Laude from Harvard Medical School after completing his secondary studies at Choate and began residency at Boston General Hospital. Before he was drafted to join the Army at the start of the Korean War, he was on track to become Chief of Thoracic Surgery.
> **[Charles Emerson Winchester III](https://mash.fandom.com/wiki/Charles_Emerson_Winchester_III)**
>
> "Gentleme-e-en.." (~Charles' signature address to the other officers present before he leaves a room, though he addresses enlisted men by their ranks) "Charles, you're pompous, arrogant, conceited, and a total bore... But you're all right." (~Hawkeye...
And Frank?
> [@](#):
>
> Frank is from Fort Wayne, Indiana. He is married with three daughters. He once mentioned that his family came to America in 1927. At the time of the Korean war (1950-53), Frank would have to be at least 40 years old; it was established that he struggled to get through medical school, and then was in practice for twelve years; this would suggest that Frank himself was an immigrant.
> **[Major Frank Burns](https://mash.fandom.com/wiki/Major_Frank_Burns)**
>
> "I'd vouch for this man's character, but he hasn't got any." \[~Hawkeye about Frank (Welcome To Korea)\] Major Franklin Delano Marion Burns was ranking surgeon and second-in-command at the 4077th MASH. He was portrayed by Robert Duvall in the 1970 film...
But as posted upthread that character was very different in the film, and probably still different in the book, so what should we accept as canon?
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### Author:  [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/75 "2020-10-07T11:45:22Z")
I assumed the difference in rank was based on age and years in practice. The captains were frat boys fresh out of their internships. The majors had more time in practice and the colonels had experience in hospital administration.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/76 "2020-10-07T12:09:44Z")
If you pick a random episode of the TV show you might think Frank is being bullied, although even that is difficult to arrive at. But from the beginning the show makes it clear that Frank is a disgrace to his uniform, the medical profession, and his species. He is treated badly because he treats everyone badly.
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### Author:  [@GreaterZamboni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreaterZamboni)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/77 "2020-10-07T14:16:44Z")
For my money one of the funniest lines in the series was this:
BURNS: Why does everyone take an instant dislike to me?
OTHER(I don’t remember who): It saves time, Frank.
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### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/78 "2020-10-07T14:20:21Z")
> [@GreaterZamboni](#):
>
> I don’t remember who
Trapper.
I can still hear it …
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/79 "2020-10-07T14:46:08Z")
> [@Schnitte](#):
>
> But as I said, I’ve only seen season 1 so far; maybe the issue of Burns’ incompetence is clearer and less ambiguous in later episodes.
I seem to remember an episode where, through gross incompetence, he left a sponge inside a patient, which led to sepsis.
OTOH, if he was that bad all the time, it just wouldn’t be worth keeping him there. Having no one operate would kill just as many people as Frank, were that the norm.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [October 7, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/80 "2020-10-07T14:57:56Z")
IIRC, it’s pretty well established that Frank has a history of cutting more corners than the other doctors. Being meatball surgery, they’re supposed to be cutting corners but sometimes Frank cuts one too many.
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