# The bullying of Frank Burns in M\*A\*S\*H
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Tags:** tv-shows-scripted
**Created:** [October 6, 2020, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329 "2020-10-06T10:53:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/121 "2020-10-08T15:33:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> Sure they did. Less common, but I knew kids with parents who divorced in the 50s.
Of course, but “It wasn’t done” by people who we invested in what other people thought, and Frank Burns was one. Don’t forget, he honestly believed that he and MAJ Houlihan were successfully keeping their affair a secret for most of the time it was going on-- right up until one point when he confesses it to Hawkeye-- I don’t remember the exact context-- I think it might have been when she decided to end the affair to marry someone else.
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### Author:  [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/122 "2020-10-08T15:35:33Z")
Sure, he wasn’t getting divorced. It was a war time affair, those weren’t supposed to count. Even future presidents had them. That was unlikely to lead to divorce, I think, I kind of assume most of those affairs ended abruptly when the participants went home.
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/123 "2020-10-08T16:13:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#):
>
> I kind of assume most of those affairs ended abruptly when the participants went home.
Blake’s did.
Too soon?
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### Author:  [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/124 "2020-10-08T16:22:33Z")
> [@bump](#):
>
> The implication was that Hawkeye, BJ, Trapper, and Blake were all “good”, and Frank was mediocre at best. Or possibly just not up to the challenge of being a MASH surgeon.
Blake knew he wasn’t as good as Hawkeye or Trapper. The difference between him and Frank was that Henry wasn’t afraid to call for help when he was in over his head. Then one of the other surgeons could come over, get him back on track, and go back to work. Frank would just get in deeper and deeper until someone had to undo everything he had done.
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### Author:  [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/125 "2020-10-08T16:56:14Z")
Again, not a big MASH fan, but FWIW, my impression was that Burns was a technically competent but mediocre surgeon, and was lazy, arrogant, and careless. My impression was that he did save lives, but not as many as he could have.
If the choice was between having Frank Burns and having a blind choice of any other surgeon in the Army, you’d take the blind choice, because they’d almost certainly be better. If the choice was between having Frank Burns and having that billet unfilled, you’d take Frank Burns. He was better than nothing, but literally pretty much just that.
My impression is that, at least in the show’s universe, qualified surgeons were in critically short supply in the Army, so the choice was the latter, and even Hawkeye conceded in at least a couple of episodes that having Burns filling the billet and the slot in the surgical rotation was better than not having anyone. I don’t think Hawkeye ever tried to prevent Burns from operating on anyone or get him on restricted duty or anything like that, which it seems like something he would have done if he thought Burns were truly incompetent.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/126 "2020-10-08T18:12:15Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#):
>
> I hope it’s not perceived as thread-shitting if I say that I don’t think it’s worth it to think too hard about why Frank is a major. MASH was not always scrupulously correct when it came to military matters, and the truth is Frank is a major mostly for story reasons. Having your heroes’ nemesis be someone who has authority over them means that they can’t just ignore him without at least potentially suffering some consequences.
Frank is kind of an Army “middle manager”. It’s not unbelievable that he would be disliked by someone like Hawkeye and Pierce. Perhaps what is more unbelievable is that Major Houlihan would have found Frank attractive.
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### Author:  [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/127 "2020-10-08T18:17:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Perhaps what is more unbelievable is that Major Houlihan would have found Frank attractive.
I think Frank was the closest thing Margaret had to a kindred spirit at the 4077th. She saw his flaws as much as anybody, but more than being attracted to him _per se_, she was attracted to what he represented to her regular-army sensibilities.
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### Author:  [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/128 "2020-10-08T18:56:49Z")
The episode where I think Hawkeye was the biggest jerk to Frank was the 1st season finale, “Showtime,” where Frank finally gets to pull a few minor pranks on Hawkeye and he responds with an ever bigger prank (having a latrine tent collapse on him.) Hawkeye couldn’t even let Frank have this little temporary win.
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### Author:  [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/129 "2020-10-08T19:00:50Z")
> [@Munch](#):
>
> Frank Burns eats worms.
Hey be nice. Burns was the recipient of a Purple Heart after getting shell fragments in his eye.
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### Author:  [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/130 "2020-10-08T20:26:50Z")
> [@gdave](#):
>
> I don’t think Hawkeye ever tried to prevent Burns from operating on anyone or get him on restricted duty or anything like that,
Except for the time Hawkeye & Trapper thought Frank had hepatitis. 🙂
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### Author:  [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/131 "2020-10-08T22:48:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> Again, it’s been awhile, but from what I recall, Major Burns was pretty much a jerk and was somewhat less than competent. I assume the Army “didn’t care” because it was wartime and they needed doctors.
I totally get the not loving Frank (or Hotlips). But in the long run, it’s hard to believe they weren’t competent, the success rate of the unit being what it was. Says Wikipedia of Colonel Blake:
> [@](#):
>
> His strength as a commander is an ability to maintain the morale of his unit, which he does through heartfelt talk and indulgence of the lunacy that is a hallmark of the 4077th. This success is demonstrated by the unit’s outstanding 97% casualty survival rate.
[source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_M*A*S*H_characters)
As @Andy_L posted upthread, there was that episode where Hawkeye missed something (behind the sigmoid colon?).
Remember this episode? Hawkeye’s hungover when the choppers arrive, doesn’t want to join them in surgery, ends up leaving OR to throw up, and Radar gives him what for.
> **[Fallen Idol (TV series episode)](https://mash.fandom.com/wiki/Fallen_Idol_(TV_series_episode))**
>
> Fallen Idol was the 125th episode of the CBS-TV series M\*A\*S\*H. The episode, the third of Season 6, was written by Everett Greenbaum and Jim Fritzell, and directed by Hy Averback. It originally aired on September 27, 1977....
Or this one, where Hawkeye removes the appendix of a perfectly healthy commander so he won’t take his troops on suicide missions? BJ says cutting into a healthy body is mutilation.
> **[Preventative Medicine (TV series episode)](https://mash.fandom.com/wiki/Preventative_Medicine_(TV_series_episode))**
>
> "You have to admire a man who won't take no for an order..." (~Hawkeye, speaking about Colonel Lacy) Preventative Medicine was the 23rd episode of Season 7 of M\*A\*S\*H, also the 170th overall series episode. The episode was written by Tom Reeder,...
If Frank had done those things…
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [October 8, 2020, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/132 "2020-10-08T23:59:36Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#):
>
> If Frank had done those things…
Not only that, Hawkeye did it twice. The first time was to Col. Flagg in season 3.
So much for “First, do no harm.”
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### Author:  [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2020, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/133 "2020-10-09T01:15:22Z")
I was always under the impression that Burns had to be the “bad guy” because he was the main “pro-Army, USA All the Way” character on the show, and by doing this, it would turn people against US involvement in Vietnam.
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### Author:  [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2020, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/134 "2020-10-09T01:24:20Z")
When the choppers came and everyone ran to the OR, suddenly all serious, seemed to me Burns was working as hard as anyone else. But it’s been a long time since I saw the show and movie.
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### Author:  [@Dogginit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogginit)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2020, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/135 "2020-10-09T04:55:50Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#):
>
> Hey be nice. Burns was the recipient of a Purple Heart after getting shell fragments in his eye.
And after throwing out his back in Houlihan’s tent in the midst of some of their shenanigans 😆 Trap & Hawkeye ended up stealing the Purple Heart & giving it to a young soldier (played by Ron Howard) so he could impress his girl back home.
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### Author:  [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2020, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/136 "2020-10-09T11:30:42Z")
That was why Larry Linville left the show - Frank was a cartoon, and there was no reasonable way to move him away from that.
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/137 "2020-10-09T14:45:38Z")
> [@Dogginit](#):
>
> Trap & Hawkeye ended up stealing the Purple Heart & giving it to a young soldier (played by Ron Howard) so he could impress his girl back home.
Why would they need to steal it? The Army has a superfluity of Purple Hearts. Aren’t they still to this day using the ones they made for the planned invasion of Japan?
Also, it isn’t very impressive to wear a medal you weren’t awarded. I guess as long as the writers could pick on Burns, who cares about the details.
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### Author:  [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/138 "2020-10-09T15:14:17Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#):
>
> Also, it isn’t very impressive to wear a medal you weren’t awarded.
Right, and something that a lot of people don’t realize is the way a medal is actually awarded is a citation and notation in your service record. The physical medal itself is of no particular significance (other than possibly for sentimental reasons).
In my military service, I was awarded a few minor medals with a citation and notation in my service record only (i.e. no award ceremony and no actual medal presented). If I wanted to wear it on my uniform I had to go purchase it myself.
Even medals and ribbons that I was awarded with an actual medal that was presented tended to go into a drawer, with the one that was worn on the uniform purchased separately…if for no other reason than the fact that they wear out and fade and have to be replaced periodically.
The key issue is having the notation in your service record. Wearing an award or ribbon with no corresponding notation in your service record is a serious violation of uniform regulations.
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### Author:  [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2020, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/139 "2020-10-09T15:18:06Z")
I don’t doubt that this is all true, but I also doubt the girlfriend of the teenage boy for whom Hawkeye and Trapper stole a Purple Heart would know it.
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### Author:  [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)
#### Post date: [October 9, 2020, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bullying-of-frank-burns-in-m-a-s-h/922329/140 "2020-10-09T15:20:25Z")
Yeah, the whole “stolen honor” thing wasn’t really an issue (and I’m guessing that while it occurred, it was rarer (partially because so many people had actual medals from WWI, WWII and Korea that it wasn’t that big a deal so less reason to fake it).
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