# The Bundys are at it again.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 3, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043 "2016-01-03T04:49:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 180
### Author:  [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3581 "2018-07-10T22:40:57Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> This is Trump’s middle finger to federal law enforcement and the department of justice. But in extending this finger, he has now openly encouraged white extremists to challenge the federal criminal justice system.
And federal public lands, which Trump has also shown hostility towards.
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### Author:  [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3582 "2018-07-10T22:50:51Z")
Adds “Armed takeovers of buildings” to the list of things that the GOP has changed it’s opinion on.
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### Author:  [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3583 "2018-07-10T23:34:08Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#):
>
> And so Donald J. Trump, the President of the United States of America, becomes a sponsor of terrorism.
if there were words bad enough to express how I feel about this, they would not be allowed in the pit.
:dubious:
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### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3584 "2018-07-10T23:53:32Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#):
>
> Adds “Armed takeovers of buildings” to the list of things that the GOP has changed it’s opinion on.
I think we should all bookmark this day.
Trump’s gimmicky use of presidential pardon is going to incite anti-law enforcement extremists, and in doing so he’s putting people’s lives in danger.
But this is now seemingly republican orthodoxy: _we support “real” law enforcement like local sheriffs and state troopers, but the ‘deep state’ has to be broken and reconstituted into…_…what, the American SS?
Conservatives claim to be pro police, pro law enforcement, pro justice, but I guess it depends on the skin color of people getting arrested. Before long, it’ll depend on the political affiliation of the people getting arrested.
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3585 "2018-07-11T00:32:04Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> …Conservatives claim to be pro police, pro law enforcement, pro justice, but I guess it depends on the skin color of people getting arrested. Before long, it’ll depend on the political affiliation of the people getting arrested.
Also depends on if you wear a cowboy hat and got a good ‘ole’ six shooter. These people think justice is a John Wayne movie.
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### Author:  [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3586 "2018-07-11T02:45:53Z")
…
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### Author:  [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3587 "2018-07-11T02:53:31Z")
> [@enipla](#):
>
> Also depends on if you wear a cowboy hat and got a good ‘ole’ six shooter. These people think justice is a John Wayne movie.
There’s a saying that could and should apply to them…
Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. I imagine if their world turned into a Clint Eastwood movie, they’d last about two minutes.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3588 "2018-07-11T04:14:05Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#):
>
> Adds “Armed takeovers of buildings” to the list of things that the GOP has changed it’s opinion on.
What? These aren’t the guys that took over the building or orchestrated the standoff. It looks like they started brush fires on their ranch, arguably on federal land, pissed off some Feds who decided to charge them with arson which carries a mandatory minimum five year sentence.
I’m not that familiar with the case, but it screams of prosecutorial overreach.
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### Author:  [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3589 "2018-07-11T04:55:07Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> I’m not that familiar with the case, but it screams of prosecutorial overreach.
How so? They set fires, they were prosecuted for setting fires, and they got the minimum sentence for setting fires.
If there’s overreach, it’s from people in this thread saying that Trump is condoning terrorism. The two men he pardoned had supporters who took over a wildlife refuge, but that doesn’t make those two men terrorists.
I’m no fan of Trump; just want to get the details right.
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### Author:  [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3590 "2018-07-11T14:11:23Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#):
>
> How so? They set fires, they were prosecuted for setting fires, and they got the minimum sentence for setting fires.
It’s been a while since I reviewed the facts of the case, but IIRC the minimum sentencing did seem harsh. I do think there’s some level of injustice given the crime.
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> What? These aren’t the guys that took over the building or orchestrated the standoff.
Above said, there’s lots and lots of injustice Trump could be addressing – the failed war on drugs, mandatory minimum sentencing for non-violent crimes, felony murder convictions for teenagers, etc. Like all of Trump’s pardons, this one isn’t about righting an injustice, it’s about sending a message to his supporters, “I’m listening and I’ve got your backs.” And in this case, the supporters in question are domestic terrorists. He should not have their backs, and he should not be sending this message.
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3591 "2018-07-11T14:35:28Z")
Can’t find any good sites, but the story I remember was that the Hammonds set the fire to cover up their illegal poaching activities (not sure how that’s supposed to work). So yeah, if that’s the case I have NO problem with at least the minimum sentence.
Colorado has 14 wildfires burning now. One was 5 miles from my work, another is 15 miles from my home. This is serious business.
[Here is a good/quick reference to current fires](https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/). So yeah, this kind of shit pisses me off.
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3592 "2018-07-11T15:06:02Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> What? These aren’t the guys that took over the building or orchestrated the standoff. It looks like they started brush fires on their ranch, arguably on federal land, pissed off some Feds who decided to charge them with arson which carries a mandatory minimum five year sentence.
>
> I’m not that familiar with the case, but it screams of prosecutorial overreach.
Short version: they started fires on their own land during a burn ban. The fire spread to federal lands and caused extensive damage. There is substantial evidence that they intended the fire to spread because it destroyed evidence that they were poaching game on federal land illegally.
Five years is pretty rough for an accidental fire. It’s pretty light for arson that caused millions of dollars in damage.
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3593 "2018-07-11T15:06:58Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#):
>
> Adds “Armed takeovers of buildings” to the list of things that the GOP has changed it’s opinion on.
Didn’t the GOP once go to war over this very issue. Place called errr Dumpster, Munster something?
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3594 "2018-07-11T15:21:04Z")
> [@steronz](#):
>
> It’s been a while since I reviewed the facts of the case, but IIRC the minimum sentencing did seem harsh.
[…meet Joshua Williams.](https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/vbv9wj/three-years-after-ferguson-one-protester-still-faces-the-aftermath)
> [@](#):
>
> He decided to use lighter fluid to set a fire to a garbage can outside the store. It was put out before causing damage, but police investigated the incident, and two days later, as he was walking to a Christmas party, cops surrounded and arrested him.
Eight fucking years. Plus a year in custody before trial. He’s still locked up.
Thats fucking harsh. Your country is all-manner-of-fucked up.
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### Author:  [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3595 "2018-07-11T15:42:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> […meet Joshua Williams.](https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/vbv9wj/three-years-after-ferguson-one-protester-still-faces-the-aftermath)
>
> Eight fucking years. Plus a year in custody before trial. He’s still locked up.
>
> Thats fucking harsh. Your country is all-manner-of-fucked up.
Yes, that is pretty harsh. But - at least tell the story -
> [@](#):
>
> Williams, one of the more prominent activists in Ferguson before being taken into custody, was arrested in December 2014 for setting a fire outside a QuikTrip convenience store during a heated protest. His actions caused almost no damage, yet after pleading guilty to arson, **burglary and theft charges** , Williams was ultimately sentenced to eight years in prison—a longer sentence than others received for similar or worse crimes, as Huffington Post pointed out. Williams and other Ferguson activists say his long sentence is an attempt to scare other protesters.
Burglary and theft as well.
The Hammonds also set their fire during a burn ban. There is VERY good reason to take this shit seriously. There are 300 square miles of fires burning right now in Colorado.
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### Author:  [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3596 "2018-07-11T15:55:21Z")
> [@enipla](#):
>
> Can’t find any good sites, but the story I remember was that the Hammonds set the fire to cover up their illegal poaching activities (not sure how that’s supposed to work). So yeah, if that’s the case I have NO problem with at least the minimum sentence.
>
> Colorado has 14 wildfires burning now. One was 5 miles from my work, another is 15 miles from my home. This is serious business.
>
> [Here is a good/quick reference to current fires](https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/). So yeah, this kind of shit pisses me off.
Reading up on it, in order to get the mandatory minimum sentence they wanted they used an anti-terrorism law that was passed after the first WTC attack. That’s the part that was an injustice. The government shouldn’t get to use fear to expand its powers and then use the powers for something completely different than their initial justification. Whatever the Hammond brothers did, calling it terrorism is a stretch beyond reason.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3597 "2018-07-11T16:22:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Short version: they started fires on their own land during a burn ban. The fire spread to federal lands and caused extensive damage. There is substantial evidence that they intended the fire to spread because it destroyed evidence that they were poaching game on federal land illegally.
>
> Five years is pretty rough for an accidental fire. It’s pretty light for arson that caused millions of dollars in damage.
I’d have to go digging in the archives, a few seconds of google doesn’t find it, but iirc, some of the fires that they set also endangered firefighters engaged in another fire at the time.
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### Author:  [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3598 "2018-07-11T16:43:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> There is substantial evidence that they intended the fire to spread because it destroyed evidence that they were poaching game on federal land illegally.
I’m wondering what sort of evidence poaching leaves, and how it can be obliterated by fire.
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3599 "2018-07-11T16:53:16Z")
After much reading, I wish to retract this statement _specifically_ regarding the Hammonds and their pardons:
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#):
>
> And so Donald J. Trump, the President of the United States of America, becomes a sponsor of terrorism.
[Here is the most succinct description of why](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2016/01/the_aedpa_was_used_to_prosecute_oregon_hammond_ranchers.html): I was incorrect regarding the law that the Hammonds were convicted of (and I’m not alone in this, I think).
> [@](#):
>
> Federal prosecutors charged and obtained arson convictions for the Hammonds under 18 U.S.C. § 844(f)(1), and such a conviction carries a sentence between five and 20 years. The Hammonds-were-mistreated-as-terrorists argument is a basic syllogism: Section 844(f) was part of anti-terrorist legislation, the Hammonds were charged under § 844(f), and so the Hammonds were prosecuted as terrorists. The problem is the major premise: Section 844(f) was ratified as part of the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 (AEDPA), but such legislative provenance does not mean that § 844(f) defines terrorism. As the legislation’s bizarre name suggests, AEDPA is actually a loose collection of tough-on-crime provisions, not a targeted anti-terrorism statute.
>
> AEDPA’s legislative history happens to be in my area of professional expertise.
The author, Lee Kovarsky (a professor at U Maryland), details how the law was quickly formulated in the aftermath of the Oklahoma City bombing and singed into law by President Clinton.
> [@](#):
>
> The A in AEDPA stands for anti-terrorism, but the idea that all of its criminal provisions are (or were intended as) devices to combat terrorists is a farce.
> [@](#):
>
> The most troubling feature of the argument, however, is its selectivity. Insofar as the Hammonds are subject to AEDPA, _they join literally every single person subject to a criminal conviction in the United States_. Yes, 28 U.S.C. § 2254 is the AEDPA–produced vehicle for state inmates to challenge their convictions in federal court, and 28 U.S.C. § 2255 is the parallel provision for federal inmates. Even though these provisions are equally part of “anti-terrorist legislation,” and even though their presence in AEDPA was clearly linked to the suggestion of punishment for the Oklahoma City bombers, there is no burgeoning angst about whether the criminals subject to them are being unfairly treated as terrorists. Robust cultural consideration of the phenomenon seems reserved for a scenario in which the aggrieved parties are eccentric white people violently contesting the authority of the federal government.
> [@](#):
>
> The Hammonds are not a story about the abuse of anti-terrorist legislation; they are simply rural, white protagonists in what should be a much more familiar story about criminal punishment and the power of the American prosecutor.
Seperating them from the Bundy clan, who’s actions they never sought, endorsed or encouraged, I cannot in good conscience refer to the Hammonds as terrorists, not with the facts as I know them now.
I do think that Donald Trump’s pardon of them sends a message to others tho, and I think that message is deliberate and purposeful on his part, so I still think he’s a loathsome douchebag.
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### Author:  [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)
#### Post date: [July 11, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bundys-are-at-it-again/742043/3600 "2018-07-11T16:54:09Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#):
>
> I’m wondering what sort of evidence poaching leaves, and how it can be obliterated by fire.
I’m not a poacher (or hunter), but if they were hunting for meat or trophy antlers, they’d leave the guts behind, which could be burned up.
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