# The Bush Administration Trashes Civil Liberties of Americans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856 "2005-12-16T03:02:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/1 "2005-12-16T03:02:51Z")
Well, I can’t say I’m suprised about this. Thank goodness somebody in the intelligence community has enough of a conscience to talk to reporters. [Bush Said to Let U.S. Tap Calls Without Courts](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?hp&ex=1134709200&en=22cb502ee0dee292&ei=5094&partner=homepage) From the article: > [@](#): > > While many details about the program remain secret, officials familiar with it say the N.S.A. eavesdrops without warrants on up to 500 people in the United States at any given time. The list changes as some names are added and others dropped, so the number monitored in this country may have reached into the thousands since the program began, several officials said. What a bunch of lowlife bastards these guys are. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/2 "2005-12-16T03:05:13Z")
Feingold in '08. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/3 "2005-12-16T03:08:25Z")
> [@lonesome loser](#): > > Feingold in '08. You know what scares a lot of people around my family? The next time we elect a President, I can legally be elected. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/4 "2005-12-16T03:19:18Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > The next time we elect a President, I can legally be elected. Are you throwing your hat into the ring? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/5 "2005-12-16T03:26:14Z")
Sure. After all, I could probably do it better than SOME current sitting Presidents. How exactly does the procedure start? Where do I begin? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/6 "2005-12-16T03:29:21Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Sure. After all, I could probably do it better than SOME current sitting Presidents. Plural? Which country do you live in? ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/7 "2005-12-16T03:35:57Z")
:smack: I keep forgetting that Cheney isn’t REALLY surgically attached to Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/8 "2005-12-16T03:53:03Z")
I may move to Iraq. I hear they have a _democracy_ there. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/9 "2005-12-16T03:59:41Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I may move to Iraq. I hear they have a _democracy_ there. The folks saying _that_ are the same guys doing the stuff in the OP… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/10 "2005-12-16T04:19:52Z")
> [@Kolak of Twilo](#): > > [Bush Said to Let U.S. Tap Calls Without Courts](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?hp&ex=1134709200&en=22cb502ee0dee292&ei=5094&partner=homepage) That is the only way to defend Amerca from the [radical militant librarians](http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/121105A.shtml) that hate freedom in America: > [@](#): > > One internal F.B.I. message, sent in October 2003, criticized the Office of Intelligence Policy and Review at the Justice Department, which reviews and approves terrorist warrants, as regularly blocking requests from the F.B.I. to use a section of the antiterrorism law that gave the bureau broader authority to demand records from institutions like banks, Internet providers and libraries. > > \*\* “While radical militant librarians kick us around, true terrorists benefit from OIPR’s failure to let us use the tools given to us,” \*\* read the e-mail message, which was sent by an unidentified F.B.I. official. “This should be an OIPR priority!!!” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/11 "2005-12-16T04:22:00Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I may move to Iraq. I hear they have a _democracy_ there. Better hurry. I hear freedom’s on the march. By the time you get there, it may be gone. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/12 "2005-12-16T04:38:18Z")
I’m not here to defend Bush. I’m not a big fan of this, but I hardly see it as the sky-is-falling that other’s will. So the government listens in on calls? Guess what? So do some of your neighbors. Yes, they do. You can go to Radio Shack and get a trunking scanner that will pick up virtually any conversation from a cordless phone. It’s legal and available to anyone. This seems a bit more targeted. I have to seriously doubt any of us fine, upstanding Dopers are even a remote candidate for this happening to us. And yes. I know Bush is out to eat your children and lock you up for dissent. It’s just hard to ignore how many of you are still here posting that he wants to end free speech and execute dissidents. Hyperbole? Nah, not when it comes to Bush. By the way, what is Rockefeller doing other than getting press? Calm down. Your phone call is more likely to be picked up by your neighbor. And if you think the government listening in on you is anything new, I have some oceanfront land in North Dakota you may be interested in. Your internet provider has been tracking damn near every keystroke since the '90’s. Wait. Bush wasn’t President back then. Hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/13 "2005-12-16T04:59:11Z")
Maybe I am mistaken, but I don’t think that my internet provider is forbidden by the Constitution of the United States of America from keeping track of my messages. The U.S. government is forbidden except under very specific circumstances. We are not talking about those circumstances; we are talking about exceptions to those circumstances. My neighbor is not as powerful as the federal government. He can do harm to me personally, of course. But he can’t erode the civil rights of an entire democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/14 "2005-12-16T05:20:07Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Maybe I am mistaken, but I don’t think that my internet provider is forbidden by the Constitution of the United States of America from keeping track of my messages. The U.S. government is forbidden except under very specific circumstances. We are not talking about those circumstances; we are talking about exceptions to those circumstances. > > My neighbor is not as powerful as the federal government. He can do harm to me personally, of course. But he can’t erode the civil rights of an entire democracy. Thanks for saying it for me **Zoe**. In the article, several govt. officials express concern about the legality of this enterprise. I found this particularly telling: > [@](#): > > Some officials familiar with it say they consider warrantless eavesdropping inside the United States to be unlawful and possibly unconstitutional, amounting to an improper search. One government official involved in the operation said he privately complained to a Congressional official about his doubts about the program’s legality. But nothing came of his inquiry. “People just looked the other way because they didn’t want to know what was going on,” he said. and this > [@](#): > > Some agency officials wanted nothing to do with the program, apparently fearful of participating in an illegal operation, a former senior Bush administration official said. really startled me. This was such a questionable operation that _the N.S.A. guys were nervous about it_? It may just be me, but I smell a Senate investigation. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/15 "2005-12-16T05:32:12Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > I’m not here to defend Bush. I’m not a big fan of this, but I hardly see it as the sky-is-falling that other’s will. So the government listens in on calls? Guess what? So do some of your neighbors. > > Yes, they do. You can go to Radio Shack and get a trunking scanner that will pick up virtually any conversation from a cordless phone. It’s legal and available to anyone. This seems a bit more targeted. 😕 This is an argument? How many debates have we had here where someone talks about something being a first admendment violation and someone else making the pertinent point that only if the government does it is a first admendment violation. Because we hold the government to particular standards we don’t necessarilly hold private citizens to. Why? Because the government has the power. C’mon, you don’t really need this explained to you do you? > [@](#): > > I have to seriously doubt any of us fine, upstanding Dopers are even a remote candidate for this happening to us. THIS is an argument??? I should worry about my government violating people’s rights because it _probably_ won’t happen to me? As long as it doesn’t happen to fine upstanding people? (Never mind that it does and those librarians and Quakers are in all likelyhood more fine and upstanding than I’ll ever be.) > [@](#): > > And yes. I know Bush is out to eat your children and lock you up for dissent. It’s just hard to ignore how many of you are still here posting that he wants to end free speech and execute dissidents. Hyperbole? Nah, not when it comes to Bush. Ah, so concern over government monitoring and possible suppression of free speech is nothing by hyperbole, at least till he’s locked all of up up. Er, might be a little late then. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/16 "2005-12-16T05:47:31Z")
Oh Christ, take a breath. If you can show me the NSA is monitoring all our phone calls, and internet transmissions, and anything else you can think of, I’ll lead the march to DC. There _is_ a need for more aggressive patrol. The NSA, as much as some like to think, is not out to take down anyone protesting the government. Neither is Bush nor the Evil Republicans. You may not like the social policies, but this doesn’t equate to gay marriage or health care or even education. It’s about national security. Anyone care to tell me where we went wrong with those kind-hearted fellows in Buffalo? More important. Can anyone cite some cases where this issue has destroyed innocents? Listening in on phone calls by a civilian isn’t a concern? You don’t ever get to mention the name Linda Tripp. You really think holding a government job is the only way you can harm someone with the information obtained from a phone call? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/17 "2005-12-16T05:49:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I smell a Senate investigation. Not unless there is a change in power in November 2006. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/18 "2005-12-16T05:52:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not unless there is a change in power in November 2006. Bullshit. If there was any leadership in the Dem Sens there would be such an outcry of abuse that hearings would be held next week. They aren’t a 1:4 minority. They have enough votes to force the issue. Now, do they have the leadership to make some noise? We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/19 "2005-12-16T06:05:03Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Bullshit. If there was any leadership in the Dem Sens there would be such an outcry of abuse that hearings would be held next week. They aren’t a 1:4 minority. They have enough votes to force the issue. Now, do they have the leadership to make some noise? We’ll see. The article is in tomorrow’s (Friday) paper. I guess we will see, won’t we? It went online around 10:30 PM CST. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Not unless there is a change in power in November 2006. I hear ya **tomndebb** but given the spine the House showed this week by siding with Maverick McCain on the torture issue _and_ the way the White House more or less caved, I have a feeling a fair number of the Repubs in Congress are getting tired of all the Bush (CHENEY) nonsense. Or at least worried about those November elections. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856/20 "2005-12-16T06:06:21Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Oh Christ, take a breath. If you can show me the NSA is monitoring all our phone calls, and internet transmissions, and anything else you can think of, I’ll lead the march to DC. It’s not till they’re monitoring ALL of us that you’ll take notice? Would be a little late as I said. And no one is saying they are…the OP is saying they’re monitoring thousands (and here’s the slightly important part) WITHOUT A WARRENT. Yes, as a matter of national security we need aggressive patrols. And monitoring phones and internet etc. is what I’d expect them to do. But when they do they have to make a case for why they should. Hence the warrent. Now, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that they do this without a warrent on their own. I wouldn’t be happy but I wouldn’t be surprised. But for the President to come out and say he doesn’t think they have to make a case for why they’re doing this…that they don’t have to account to anyone when they do…you don’t see any problem with that? The accountabiltiy of the govenment is a pretty basic part of a free society. > [@](#): > > More important. Can anyone cite some cases where this issue has destroyed innocents? No, let’s wait till some are, shall we? > [@](#): > > Listening in on phone calls by a civilian isn’t a concern? You don’t ever get to mention the name Linda Tripp. You really think holding a government job is the only way you can harm someone with the information obtained from a phone call? Who said it wasn’t? it’s not what we’re talking about. You’re the one who brought it up. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-bush-administration-trashes-civil-liberties-of-americans/335856.md?page=2)