The Bush Administration Trashes Civil Liberties of Americans

Attorney General Gonzales has given us the “benefit of his wisdom”. On the Today Show with Katie Couric. Gonzales trotted out the “inherent authority” excuse. No surprise. then he also said that the President also was authorized by Congress to commit this act. Specifically, he said that Bush was granted this power under the authorization for war. I presume he was talking about the Authorization for War passed on September 14, 2001. Was Gonzales referring to the fact Congress gave the President the authority to use “all necessary and appropriate force” to combat terrorism? But the word “force” there is invoked with respect to the use of military force. Congress added the phrase “necessary and appropriate” precisely because it intended to restrict the President to the confines of the law. So the “resolved” clause is out. What other aspect of the authorization gives the President the right to ignore the 4th Amendment? “Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States: Now, therefore, be it resolved…” Any “whereas” clauses have no binding legal effect. He says this clause recognized that the President has unfettered power under the Constitution to skirt the law and order warrantless spying. But the Constitution mandates that the President preserve and defend the Constitution–which includes the Fourth Amendment and its protection against warrantless searches and seizures. But never mind that, We have been already “educated” that the Fourth Amendment is irrelevant by non other than our own esteemed legal expert. It seems that the courts disagree as previously shown in Katz" and as shown below…

Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis) responded to Gonzales’ comments in an NBC interview this morning. “This is just an outrageous power grab,” he said. “Nobody, nobody, thought when we passed a resolution to invade Afghanistan and to fight the war on terror, including myself who voted for it, thought that this was an authorization to allow a wiretapping against the law of the United States.” There’s two ways you can do this kind of wiretapping under our law. One is through the criminal code, Title III; the other is through the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. That’s it. That’s the only way you can do it. You can’t make up a law and deriving it from the Afghanistan resolution. “The president has, I think, made up a law that we never passed,” said Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.).

Here, for those who continue to ignore it, is Katz.

In a 1972 case, the Supremes held that even in the face of great harm, the President is not allowed to authorize warrantless surveillance. U.S. v. U.S. District Court, 407 US 297

Findlaw has some interesting annotations for the 4th Amendment. The courts seem to differentiate between government spying on citizens versus spying on foreign nationals.
The courts have fairly consistently stated that for spying on citizens, they must have a warrant..

I already noted the findings from Katz. No warrant = no spying. They make no exceptions for any "what if he is calling cousin Ahmed in Lower Slobbovia.

Below is a very interesting interpretation from a Glenn Greenwald, who is a lawyer. His reading agrees with mine. He also has some comments on the tactic of selectively quoting parts of the law, while deliberatelt excluding other equally inportant parts.

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2005/12/purposely-misquoting-fisa-to-defend.html
Glenn Greenwald

[QUOTE=Greenwald]
Defenders of the Bush Administration are resorting to outright distortions and deliberate falsehoods about the Foreign Intelligence Security Act (FISA) in order to argue that the Administration’s warrantless eavesdropping on U.S. citizens complies with the mandates of that statute. … We’re not talking here about an unconvincing or erroneous legal argument. This is something different entirely – it is an argument based upon a fundamental misquoting of the law in question designed to make illegal behavior look legal. …
FISA is a relatively straightforward statute and the issue here is a simple one. The statute begins with § 1801, which in Section(a) defines various types of “foreign powers” on whom the Government can eavesdrop.
Under Section(a), subsections (1)-(3) essentially refer to foreign governments or groups expressly controlled by a foreign government.
Subsections (1)-(3) do not include non-governmental terrorist organizations, such as Al Qaeda. Such groups – i.e., terrorists organizations – are referenced in subsection (4) only.
The next section of FISA – § 1802 – allows warrantless eavesdropping for up to one year (provided other procedures are complied with). But it does so only for “electronic surveillance [that] is solely directed at communications” among foreign powers referred to by subsections (1)-(3) – but not subsection (4). Thus, this authorization to conduct warrantless searches is expressly limited to communications among subsection (1)-(3) foreign governments but does not even arguably extend to subsection (4) terrorist groups.

To argue this, he purports to quote the authorization language of § 1802, but omits from his quotation the part of the statute which entirely negates his argument – namely, the part which limits this authorization to subsections (1)-(3), but excludes subsection (4). …
When pretending to quote the statute, Al Maviva simply omitted the language making clear that the warrantless authorization applies only to foreign powers referenced in subsections (A)(1)-(3), and not to terrorist organizations, referenced in (A)(4). …
The only way to argue that the Bush Administration’s warrantless eavesdropping on suspected terrorists, including U.S. citizens, complied with the law is by misquoting the law in order to change its requirements.[/QUOTE]

Now Bricker, does this look familiar? Were you also using this tactic?
Holy shit. I’m not a lawyer, but I can read. If you take the entire FISA section and read it in its entirety, instead of slicing out only what you want, a whole different picture emerges. I expected a hell of a lot better than that.

Given the context of our discussion, I thought I was being clear, but evidently not.

You have no right to scream that you had no idea someone could do this if someone takes your personal information out of your garbage.

Oh.

Well, I thought I answered that. why do I have no way to evaluate the statement? I do have one other way: my gut feel that it’s OK. But arguing my gut feel doesn’t seem useful.

So… what other way, besides (a) what the law allows, and (b) my gut feel about what the law should allow, should I have?

It looks like the “we’re at war” argument is what Bush is relying on. I don’t buy it, but we’ll see what Congress and (possibly) the SCOTUS says.

Gonzales: War powers authorized eavesdropping

It will be particularly interesting to see if Bush did in fact let “leaders” in Congress of both parties know what he was doing and why he thought he had authority to do it, and what fedback he got from these “leaders”.

[QUOTE=SteveG1]
Attorney General Gonzales has given us the “benefit of his wisdom”. On the Today Show with Katie Couric. Gonzales trotted out the “inherent authority” excuse. No surprise. then he also said that the President also was authorized by Congress to commit this act. Specifically, he said that Bush was granted this power under the authorization for war. I presume he was talking about the Authorization for War passed on September 14, 2001. Was Gonzales referring to the fact Congress gave the President the authority to use “all necessary and appropriate force” to combat terrorism? But the word “force” there is invoked with respect to the use of military force. Congress added the phrase “necessary and appropriate” precisely because it intended to restrict the President to the confines of the law. So the “resolved” clause is out.

[quote]

Stop right there.

When Congress gave the President authority to use necessary and appropriate military force, they declared war within the meaning of 50 USC § 1811. That gave the President authority to tap individual targets for up to fifteen days each.

THAT is my argument. No other law is required. 1811 specifcally says, “Notwitstanding any other law…” so there is no need to try to fit what it says into other language.

If you can rebut that argument, I’m listening.

You think the could whip out a list of names pretty quickly - hell, you think he’d have had them in his speech in an attempt to go for his standard ANDEDTB* defense.

Can someone explain to me with whom we’re at war as (seemingly) indicated by “War Powers Act”?

-Joe

*(Admit Nothing, Deny Everything, Deflect The Blame)

I thought we agreed this was not a settled point? If you are going to continue to argue this as though it is an unqualiifed fact, I am obliged to continue to point out that it is incorrect. According to the War Powers act, Congress can either declare war, or, as in the case of Iraq, pass a statutory authorization of military action. No declaration of war, no application of 50 USC § 1811. Bush broke the law.

Right. We did agree it was not a settled point. I’m saying that’s the President’s position, and it an arguable, reasonable position to take. It may not ultimately be a position that is upheld, but until there is a judicial precedent set, he is entitled to act on his interpretation.

I’m not arguing it’s an unqualified fact. I’m saying that the opposite view is ALSO not an unqualified fact. Which we both agreed upon, but which SteveG1 has not accepted yet.

“those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001”

Link.

This is according ot the President. Don’t shoot the messenger. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Bricker]

[QUOTE=SteveG1]
Attorney General Gonzales has given us the “benefit of his wisdom”. On the Today Show with Katie Couric. Gonzales trotted out the “inherent authority” excuse. No surprise. then he also said that the President also was authorized by Congress to commit this act. Specifically, he said that Bush was granted this power under the authorization for war. I presume he was talking about the Authorization for War passed on September 14, 2001. Was Gonzales referring to the fact Congress gave the President the authority to use “all necessary and appropriate force” to combat terrorism? But the word “force” there is invoked with respect to the use of military force. Congress added the phrase “necessary and appropriate” precisely because it intended to restrict the President to the confines of the law. So the “resolved” clause is out.

I see you are still slicing and dicing. Your argument doesn’t even fit in the rest of 50US. You are deliberately ignoring the parts you don’t like. You are delibereately ignoring all the parts that give context and frame 1811, and deliberately misusing even 50US1811. You can not take a law, lift only one or two sentences out of it, ignore the rest of it and claim anything. That is pure nonsense. It is dishonest. It is incompetent. Try that in court, and the opposing lawyer will destroy you.
Official Congressional Declaration Of War. Not any namby pamby “declaration to use MILITARY force if and when necessary to force nuclear WMD etc et etc inspection requirements”. Not some “send a message” bullshit that got out of hand. An honest to Og, here it is, we gonna bomb you, and burn your cities, official Congressional Declaration Of War. Maybe even with the word WAR in it. Yep. Just like the Decaration Of War (against a foreign STATE) that put us in World War 2. I’ll stick to what the Supreme Court already ruled more than once on identical attempts to circumvent the law. Their rulings say to my “uneducated eye” that even if this were a Real Declaration, there are LIMITS to presidential power.

You ignore FISA itself, with its constant and deliberate reference to FOREIGN powers/states/governments/whatever. You ignore the parts that do indeed say a warrant is required. You ignore court rulings that say a warrant is required, even though they are public record. You lift sentences and deliberately use them out of context and 180 degrees out of what the mean.

The president never ever ever ever ever has blanket unlimited authority to do whatever he wants, no matter what the circumstance. He can not iinvent or decree a law, he can not ignore the law, he can not ignore or overrule Congress, he can not ignore already existing Supreme Court rulings. He is not a god king. In short, he can NOT do whatever he pleases.

I don’t see many Senators* rushing out to say that of course the resolution to use force was equivalent to a declaration of war. Of course this was part of what Bush explained to us, and what we all agreed. While Bush’s defense may indeed be enough to deflect the “he broke the law” argument, I still think it was monumentally stupid of him to do this. Was it really necessary to bypass the FISA court? Was there no way to speed up that process, if it was thought to be too slow?

*I don’t listen to the blather coming out of the House. There’s always some House member who will say anything-- and this applies to both ends of the political spectrum.

Well, all I’m doing is rebutting the “he broke the law” argument. You get no contradiction on “he was unwise” from me.

What does “notwithstanding any other law,” mean?

That sentence says that §§ 1811 stands on its own. That the provisions of §§1811 CAN be “lifted” out.

Doesn’t it?

That’s crystal clear. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW.

Oh, I missed this gem before.

Certainly I will yield the point immediately if the Supreme Court has ruled even once on an identical attempt to circumvent the law.

What cases were those?

Yeah, I understand. I’m also wondering it was even necessary, let alone wise. IOW, is the FISA court that slow to react? Has it been impossible in the last 4 years to speed it up, if needed?

I bet most people would give Bush a pass if this was done for a few months right after 9/11. But he continues to do this today. Let’s face it, the “war on terror” is never going to be over. If Bush has his way, this will always be legal. I don’t think that’s good policy, and it’s not good politics for the Republicans. Someone needs to slap that guy! :slight_smile:

Following a declaration of war by the Congress. That’s crystal clear.

“A period not to exceed fifteen calendar days” is crystal clear too.

Your cherry-picking isn’t often this blatant, Bricker. You’re slipping.

Maybe so, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that the press sometimes plays more of an active political role than it should.

Well, I say it’s NOT crystal clear. I say that the “declaration of war” language as used in 50 USC § 1811 was satisfied by the Congressional resolution that authorized a use of military force.

Now, I agree that my own interpretation may be wrong. But my point here is that this element is NOT crystal clear. And criminal statutes have to be construed strictly. That is a basic tenet of criminal law – the rule of lenity.

So if a court finds that your interpretation is correct, and the President CONTINUES to do it, then I’ll agree he’s broken the law. But until then, he is exploiting indefinite language in the law. He’s exploiting a loophole. He’s not breaking the law.

Can you clarify what that means? I’m obviously missing the point, because ISTM that construing the law “strictly” would mean that a formal declaration of war **was **necessary. Looks like you’re construing it loosely.