# The Butterfly-In-a-Box Effect **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 9, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391 "2014-01-09T21:24:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/101 "2014-01-11T15:37:42Z")
> [@spinky](#): > > In order to drive them crazy with this, you’d have to violate the rules of the OP by sending them a description of what it is. Otherwise, it’s just a rock. Please stick to the topic. If you blocked out the words on the container, [a rock sitting on a bed of straw in a ventilated box](https://www.google.com/search?q=pet+rock&client=firefox-a&hs=vrM&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=76SDY3XssPSo3M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQJ7BEAsrSYF-V-FGlz8VJf_gCmXUnjmo4Prt__RWCb0fxJrHZ1%253B307%253B200%253BRZgjh3_Im4-DWM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fcontent.time.com%25252Ftime%25252Fspecials%25252Fpackages%25252Farticle%25252F0%25252C28804%25252C1947621_1947626_1947687%25252C00.html&sa=X&ei=aGTRUvKrNM-IogT25oLgAQ&ved=0CD8Q9QEwAg&biw=1536&bih=786#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=76SDY3XssPSo3M%253A%3BRZgjh3_Im4-DWM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg.timeinc.net%252Ftime%252Fphotoessays%252F2009%252Ftop10_toy%252Fpet_rock.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcontent.time.com%252Ftime%252Fspecials%252Fpackages%252Farticle%252F0%252C28804%252C1947621_1947626_1947687%252C00.html%3B307%3B200) would be a puzzle to them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/102 "2014-01-11T15:42:06Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > “Wot’s this, then?” > “Looks like shoes from the distant future.” > “Why’re they so fooking uncomfortable?” Of course there’s the danger that extremely uncomfortable shoes will become fashionable, sitting in motion a trend that will lead to extremely painful foot wear becoming the norm in our own time. Hmmm-I wonder if this is the reason for a lot of women’s footwear today? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/103 "2014-01-11T15:48:46Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > If this worked it would be really cool. Absolutely a great idea…but would it play their contemporary music, or would you want to influence musical trends by playing something more modern? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/104 "2014-01-11T15:50:47Z")
> [@spinky](#): > > In order to drive them crazy with this, you’d have to violate the rules of the OP by sending them a description of what it is. Otherwise, it’s just a rock. Please stick to the topic. Speaking of which, do you have any suggestions pertaining to the topic? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/105 "2014-01-11T18:59:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you blocked out the words on the container, [a rock sitting on a bed of straw in a ventilated box](https://www.google.com/search?q=pet+rock&client=firefox-a&hs=vrM&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=76SDY3XssPSo3M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQJ7BEAsrSYF-V-FGlz8VJf_gCmXUnjmo4Prt__RWCb0fxJrHZ1%253B307%253B200%253BRZgjh3_Im4-DWM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fcontent.time.com%25252Ftime%25252Fspecials%25252Fpackages%25252Farticle%25252F0%25252C28804%25252C1947621_1947626_1947687%25252C00.html&sa=X&ei=aGTRUvKrNM-IogT25oLgAQ&ved=0CD8Q9QEwAg&biw=1536&bih=786#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=76SDY3XssPSo3M%253A%3BRZgjh3_Im4-DWM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg.timeinc.net%252Ftime%252Fphotoessays%252F2009%252Ftop10_toy%252Fpet_rock.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcontent.time.com%252Ftime%252Fspecials%252Fpackages%252Farticle%252F0%252C28804%252C1947621_1947626_1947687%252C00.html%3B307%3B200) would be a puzzle to them. yeah, until it starts talking! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/106 "2014-01-11T19:18:15Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > yeah, until it starts talking! ummm-yeah. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/107 "2014-01-11T23:39:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Send it to that fella Roger Bacon, he seemed to know what’s what. He won’t be born for 200 years from when the time box shows up. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/108 "2014-01-11T23:55:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you blocked out the words on the container, [a rock sitting on a bed of straw in a ventilated box](https://www.google.com/search?q=pet+rock&client=firefox-a&hs=vrM&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=76SDY3XssPSo3M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQJ7BEAsrSYF-V-FGlz8VJf_gCmXUnjmo4Prt__RWCb0fxJrHZ1%253B307%253B200%253BRZgjh3_Im4-DWM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fcontent.time.com%25252Ftime%25252Fspecials%25252Fpackages%25252Farticle%25252F0%25252C28804%25252C1947621_1947626_1947687%25252C00.html&sa=X&ei=aGTRUvKrNM-IogT25oLgAQ&ved=0CD8Q9QEwAg&biw=1536&bih=786#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=76SDY3XssPSo3M%253A%3BRZgjh3_Im4-DWM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg.timeinc.net%252Ftime%252Fphotoessays%252F2009%252Ftop10_toy%252Fpet_rock.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcontent.time.com%252Ftime%252Fspecials%252Fpackages%252Farticle%252F0%252C28804%252C1947621_1947626_1947687%252C00.html%3B307%3B200) would be a puzzle to them. Still just a rock, dude. And I’m certain they already have one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/109 "2014-01-12T16:01:59Z")
I still think the compound bow, for reasons **Slypork** illustrated above, is the best bet if you really wanted to change the course of civilization. They would recognize it for what it is, and be able to duplicate it after a fashion. [This one would be functional right out of the box,](http://www.libertyarchery.com/) easily transportable and extremely light. An army equipped with these could take on much larger forces. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/110 "2014-01-13T02:26:28Z")
Velcro. If it’s good enough for T’pol. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/111 "2014-01-13T03:51:28Z")
I suspect people underestimate how much technology counts. For example, a compound bow is probably not a new idea, just one that doesn’t help much without modern materials. A great example of this is the history of sailing technology. In general, the most common vessel plans are the most efficient possible, given the materials of the time and the purposes of the crafts. Take America’s Cup sailboats. Turn of 1900, the forestay doesn’t go to the masthead. A few decades later, all the entries are “masthead” rigs, where the forestay goes to the masthead (of the SINGLE mast, instead of multiple masts), with also a highly tensed backstay. Why the difference? Simply because later they were able to make hulls strong enough to withstand the high tension necessary to make a masthead rig efficient. (Curvature in the forestay reduces efficiency.) I wish I knew what specific advance in materials allowed for the stronger hulls. So, of the ideas above, my favorite is the telescope. It’s one of fairly few ideas that could have come far earlier, given the technology, if someone had had the idea. Note that most technology ideas that are labor-saving aren’t of much use in 1014, since at that time we had plenty of people to do anything that needed being done. It took a couple plagues, reducing the population dramatically, before people had much interest in labor-saving (labor-multiplying) devices. ---
**Author:** ![Engineer\_Dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9fc29f/32.png) [@Engineer\_Dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Engineer_Dude)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/112 "2014-01-13T14:30:57Z")
A roll of duct tape. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/113 "2014-01-13T16:05:32Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I suspect people underestimate how much technology counts. > > For example, a compound bow is probably not a new idea, just one that doesn’t help much without modern materials. Well, actually, that’s not a good example. The compound bow was used by the freaking MONGOLS in their empire-building in the 1200s, it was by no means MODERN. Modern compound bows are better than what the Mongols had, but the compound bow along with the stirrup are generally credited with helping in their conquest of central Asia and eastern Europe. A better example might be cannon. You could send across some gunpowder, plus the various elements needed to make gunpowder packaged in their proper ratios. But you couldn’t send back a modern cannon with rifling because the materials technology needed to make rifled cannon. You’d have to send back something like one of those bombards, which basically looked like a cooking pot with a hole in it, and which sometimes/often blew up during use. You’d probably have to send back a toy bombard fully loaded, along with a wick, etc. and whatever firestarting technology they had (to light the fuse). But if you sent them to someone smart enough, who was engaged with military tech and had the ear of someone powerful, you might change military tech and world history. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/114 "2014-01-13T17:04:40Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well, actually, that’s not a good example. The compound bow was used by the freaking MONGOLS in their empire-building in the 1200s, it was by no means MODERN. Modern compound bows are better than what the Mongols had, but the compound bow along with the stirrup are generally credited with helping in their conquest of central Asia and eastern Europe. Thanks for the correction. As it turned out, I made a couple of mistakes. I should check my facts better! I knew that cams have been in use for a long time, but as it turns out, they weren’t common in European tech until the 1300s. I did consider the stirrup, but it dates back to the end of the Roman era. I’m fascinated in general by ideas that could have come much earlier and weren’t gated by technology, though I confess I don’t know a lot of examples. I’ve been thinking of starting an IMHO thread on it: what could have come earlier? I remember reading some annoying sci-fi story (Riverworld?) where all they need is an engineer and mostly unskilled labor and in short order he’s built a paddlewheeler. Now, while I admit a solid understanding of thermodynamics would have vastly sped up the advance of the steam engine, I can’t imagine doing it without a long ramp up in materials tech. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/115 "2014-01-13T17:07:37Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > A better example might be cannon. You could send across some gunpowder, plus the various elements needed to make gunpowder packaged in their proper ratios. But you couldn’t send back a modern cannon with rifling because the materials technology needed to make rifled cannon. You’d have to send back something like one of those bombards, which basically looked like a cooking pot with a hole in it, and which sometimes/often blew up during use. The biggest problem is that they might have trouble figuring out what saltpeter is, where to get it, how to identify it, etc. But once you plant the idea with a big incentive, such problems might be small. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/116 "2014-01-13T17:14:01Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Well, actually, that’s not a good example. The compound bow was used by the freaking MONGOLS in their empire-building in the 1200s, it was by no means MODERN. Modern compound bows are better than what the Mongols had, but the compound bow along with the stirrup are generally credited with helping in their conquest of central Asia and eastern Europe. Are you perhaps confusing the [composite bow which was used by the Mongols](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow) with the more modern [compound bow?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_bow) ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/117 "2014-01-13T18:06:39Z")
I considered a compound bow a few days ago, but as **LearJeff** points out, the materials are a big part of what makes it work. I have always heard that it is unsafe to shoot wooden arrows from a compound bow, that was another factor in not choosing that item. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/118 "2014-01-13T21:12:24Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Rules schmules. Everything we send back will be covered in bacteria, live or dead. I’d like to figure out some way to inoculate native Americans against European diseases and see how that tips the scales. That’s what I was going for with the Cowpox, but **Czar** cruelly nixed our plan. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/119 "2014-01-13T21:21:20Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > That’s what I was going for with the Cowpox, but **Czar** cruelly nixed our plan. I actually considered allowing it…but it wouldn’t be fair to allow that, and not allow as many deadly disease variations as could fit into a two by two by two box. This thread is about influencing civilization for good or ill, not "influenza"ing it to death within a couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![HipGnosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/76d3ee/32.png) [@HipGnosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HipGnosis)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2014, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/120 "2014-01-13T22:15:33Z")
Screw-threads A wooden nut on a wooden dowel w/ threads, holding something compressed. And a wooden wrench. I’ll let you historians figure out whom best to send it to. I think many of you are forgetting that technology didn’t travel as fast then as it does now, so even if it already existed somewhere, it could still be a game changer if magically given to another culture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391.md?page=7)