# The Butterfly-In-a-Box Effect **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 9, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391 "2014-01-09T21:24:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![JonPB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@JonPB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonPB)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/141 "2014-01-22T19:23:10Z")
I’m going to be selfish. I’m confident that my lineage, as a true American mutt, would be disrupted by any significant changes to economic or military history. Doing anything to advance technology would probably lead to my non-existence. However, as we’re dealing with the fiction of a time machine already and the rules don’t limit the item sent back to things that actually exist, I think I’d send back another time machine that would be fully assembled to send forward 980 years, to my then residence, full instructions on how to understand and construct yet further time machines. I also like the “box of Twinkies” idea, if only because it cleverly skirts the rule against living or formerly living items by including the miracle of inorganic foodstuffs. Cheers, Jon ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/142 "2014-01-22T20:43:04Z")
> [@JonPB](#): > > I’m going to be selfish. I’m confident that my lineage, as a true American mutt, would be disrupted by any significant changes to economic or military history. Doing anything to advance technology would probably lead to my non-existence. However, as we’re dealing with the fiction of a time machine already and the rules don’t limit the item sent back to things that actually exist, I think I’d send back another time machine that would be fully assembled to send forward 980 years, to my then residence, full instructions on how to understand and construct yet further time machines. > > I also like the “box of Twinkies” idea, if only because it cleverly skirts the rule against living or formerly living items by including the miracle of inorganic foodstuffs. Twinkies are also allowed because this thread isn’t about carrying everything to ridiculous extremes just so you can shit in the sandbox, so to speak. Or in other words, “no living creatures or formerly living creatures” means no animals, live or dead, and no vials of micronasties that could infect or inoculate", NOT “OMG! That means we can’t send anything made of wood or fiber, or anything that might have been touched by a germ!” Also, I shouldn’t have to say that you _are_ limited to things that will fit in the box _and actually exist_, but for your benefit, consider it said. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/143 "2014-01-22T21:04:18Z")
A print out of this thread ---
**Author:** ![JonPB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/34f0e0/32.png) [@JonPB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonPB)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/144 "2014-01-22T22:48:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Also, I shouldn’t have to say that you _are_ limited to things that will fit in the box _and actually exist_, but for your benefit, consider it said. 🙂 Well, in the spirit of the question–rather than having fun with it in my own little literal world–I think I’d want to send back something that advances art rather than technology. I’m assuming here that prohibiting pictures is to prohibit instructions on how to use the thing sent back, but not pictures in their own right. So I think I’d look at the kinds of art materials used back then, identify a target, probably either a wealthy art aficionado or an artistic monastery, then identify a landmark nearby that wouldn’t have changed much over the years–a mountain, a seascape–and send back a set of interpretations of that scene in different styles but using period materials. An impressionistic painting, a pointallist, one where things melt, a four-season set a la van Gogh, a cubist, a Mondrian- or Klee-style abstract, and perhaps one from the local elementary school to round things out, all of the same scene. I think those would all fit into 8 cubic feet. They’d likely be considered worthless, but perhaps an artist would see them and start playing with their ideas. And, who knows, perhaps that freedom of expression would lead to other explorations of thought and there’d be a technological revolution anyhow. Cheers, Jon ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/145 "2014-01-22T22:51:42Z")
Different styles of art to perhaps influence others artistically? I like it, and I wonder which styles might take hold a thousand years in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/146 "2014-01-23T02:38:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I actually considered allowing it…but it wouldn’t be fair to allow that, and not allow as many deadly disease variations as could fit into a two by two by two box. This thread is about influencing civilization for good or ill, not "influenza"ing it to death within a couple of years. I think the intent was to inoculate them, not wipe them out. A pair of glasses? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/147 "2014-01-23T07:29:30Z")
How about an American football uniform with no numbers and no team names, but with the helmet, cleats, pads and helmet with a face mask? Our ancestors might see a famous war with sides dressed like Broncos & Seahawks. Also, how about many small but modern everyday things? A toothbrush with toothpaste wrapped in a rubber band, small bottle of Scope with the label torn off, deodorant, any plastic cup, any glass measuring cup with just lines without measurements, sweat socks (so theres no silly dependency on stockings all the time) and a cheap store rain poncho? Oh. Add the battery powered dildo too. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/148 "2014-01-23T07:48:18Z")
Missed edit! Two more: A battery powered DustBuster Extra Large Post-It notes ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/149 "2014-01-23T14:01:12Z")
A fez. A twelve foot long wool scarf. Chuck Taylor All Stars. Send it to Islington. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/150 "2014-01-23T15:34:50Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > How about an American football uniform with no numbers and no team names, but with the helmet, cleats, pads and helmet with a face mask? Our ancestors might see a famous war with sides dressed like Broncos & Seahawks. Interesting…but how much of it would fit in the box? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/151 "2014-01-23T20:16:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Interesting…but how much of it would fit in the box? Is the helmet really that big? (Maybe for Sherman :D) Or we could just send a kid’s size uniform and send it to… Sparta? Nah, too late, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/152 "2014-01-23T20:22:31Z")
How about a bobble-head Buddy Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/153 "2014-01-23T22:18:41Z")
How about seeds? Send cereal grains to the Americas, or tobacco/tomato/pepper/potato seeds to Europe. ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/154 "2014-01-24T09:16:32Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > So…a singing, dancing frog is out? Rats! https://www.youtube.com/embed/4sT99Y4AnmA?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/155 "2014-01-24T09:19:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Premise: We’ve got a time machine that can send one item exactly 1000 years into the past. This item must not have any writing on it, print out writing or even display writing or pictures. It can be mechanical in nature, must be fully assembled and it must fit into a symmetrical 8 cubic foot box(2x2x2). > What would you send back, and what do you hope would be the result? I was thinking something medical, like medicine to cure but without writing on it, it’s doubtful they would even know what it is or what to do with it. I’d go with what was suggested which was the printing press. But without written instructions not sure they would know what to do with that either. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/156 "2014-01-24T13:34:07Z")
> [@edwardcoast](#): > > I was thinking something medical, like medicine to cure but without writing on it, it’s doubtful they would even know what it is or what to do with it. > > I’d go with what was suggested which was the printing press. But without written instructions not sure they would know what to do with that either. How small can a printing press be? ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/157 "2014-01-24T13:38:28Z")
Is there a loophole for sending a small movable type printing press with blank blocks and a bottle of ink to Europe? It would not have any writing or pictures on it. It can’t even print out writing (from OP) until the blocks are shaped by the user. The biggest disadvantage is that it might not be recognized for what it is. It might be seen as just a toy or puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/158 "2014-01-24T14:07:20Z")
> [@Wolverine](#): > > Is there a loophole for sending a small movable type printing press with blank blocks and a bottle of ink to Europe? It would not have any writing or pictures on it. It can’t even print out writing (from OP) until the blocks are shaped by the user. The biggest disadvantage is that it might not be recognized for what it is. It might be seen as just a toy or puzzle. If it will fit in a 2x2x2 foot box, it’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/159 "2014-01-24T14:18:29Z")
How about something not too difficult for them to figure out how to use and immediately useful? It’d require some illustrated instructions but maybe a couple of [oil lantern](http://www.lanternnet.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/tn8BluePT.jpg)s, a can or two of oil, and some spare wicks? I don’t think it’s so advanced to get someone burned at the stake for witchcraft. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391/160 "2014-01-24T14:24:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How small can a printing press be? A couple of my posts, I suggested scale models. (Even said printing press 😉 ) Of course, we would need to send it back specifically to some truly gifted person/people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-butterfly-in-a-box-effect/678391.md?page=9)