# The Caine Mutiny---Was Queeg really crazy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 15, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719 "2015-02-15T14:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/21 "2015-02-15T21:20:36Z")
“Why did Lt. Whitewald tire? Get moving, Van!” Queeg’s cowardice at the landing zone should have been enough. What would have happened if the trio of officers had gone all the way to the admiral (in the movie they get an appointment to talk to him, but then chicken out?) Their testimony, and an entire crew as witnesses, would prove that Queeg disregarded orders, acted in cowardice, and endangered the landing. The admiral might have been able to cover things up – and the three officers might have been okay with that. Get Queeg a transfer to a desk job where he can be properly supervised. By coincidence, I just read “Sea of Glory” by Nathaniel Philbrick, a history of the U.S. Exploring Expedition of 1838, commanded by Charles Wilkes, who suffered from many of Queeg’s failings and limitations. Favoritism, cruelty, self-aggrandizement (gave himself a promotion in rank!) violation of regulations, etc. (But never cowardice!) There was a court-martial at the end, where he basically dodges the worst of the charges. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/22 "2015-02-15T22:03:48Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Still, we haven’t mentioned in this thread the meal at which Queeg flat-out asked the officers to help him–and was met with stony silence. (This is in the movie; I haven’t read the book.) > > That refusal to respond to Queeg’s request had to have been on the consciences of the ‘mutineers’–and rightfully so. If they’d unbent enough to say “yes, we will help” that wouldn’t have solved Queeg’s mental problems, but it might have made a substantial difference in the outcome of some of the incidents. Queeg asked for their help, and may have even believed he meant it, but I still don’t think he could accept the sort of help he really needed. When Queeg says “help me”, he means “agree with me about everything”. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/23 "2015-02-15T22:21:14Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Queeg asked for their help, and may have even believed he meant it, but I still don’t think he could accept the sort of help he really needed. When Queeg says “help me”, he means “agree with me about everything”. That’s quite possibly true. But at the same time, the less reason he might have had to feel paranoid, the fewer “incidents” there would have been (I’m guessing). If the officers had been less flat-out rude—and it _was_ rude to remain silent at that meal after Queeg’s request—then Queeg might have been less quick to spiral into anger/defensiveness/over-reacting/freezing-up. I’m not saying that a response by the officers at that meal would have solved Queeg’s problems (as I mentioned in my previous post). But as shown in the film version, staying silent _was_ a decision that the officers might well have regretted, later. They really had NOT done all they could to keep the ship running smoothly; they had chosen to stay aloof and that did have consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/24 "2015-02-15T22:52:18Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Greenwald defended his client, and he should have left it there, either enjoying the celebration or leaving town. Unfortunately Greenwald isn’t a robot. He used every dirty trick at his disposal to get his client off and he felt horrible about it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/25 "2015-02-15T23:40:47Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > That’s quite possibly true. But at the same time, the less reason he might have had to feel paranoid, the fewer “incidents” there would have been (I’m guessing). If the officers had been less flat-out rude—and it _was_ rude to remain silent at that meal after Queeg’s request—then Queeg might have been less quick to spiral into anger/defensiveness/over-reacting/freezing-up. > > I’m not saying that a response by the officers at that meal would have solved Queeg’s problems (as I mentioned in my previous post). But as shown in the film version, staying silent _was_ a decision that the officers might well have regretted, later. They really had NOT done all they could to keep the ship running smoothly; they had chosen to stay aloof and that did have consequences. What would you have said, then? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/26 "2015-02-16T17:52:59Z")
Something of note, maybe, is that Willie dislikes all of the Captains of the Caine…when De Vriess is captain, he dislikes him, when Queeg is captain, he dislikes him, and when Keefer is captain, he dislikes him. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/27 "2015-02-16T19:29:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Something of note, maybe, is that Willie dislikes all of the Captains of the Caine…when De Vriess is captain, he dislikes him, when Queeg is captain, he dislikes him, and when Keefer is captain, he dislikes him. That’s a little simplistic. Willie is taken to task for disliking De Vriess. Queeg he likes at first. He doesn’t dislike Keefer. He pities him. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/28 "2015-02-16T21:33:59Z")
Queeg may not be clinically insane but he is a textbook case of what is now called [toxic leadership](http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2014-02/deckplates-toxic-leaders-bullies-our-ranks). If you follow any military pages or blogs it seems like more commanders are getting relieved than are successfully completing their tours. All of the military and the Navy in particular are cracking down on bad leaders these days. Which you can do in a time of shrinking budgets and smaller branches. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/29 "2015-02-17T00:28:09Z")
I think everybody agrees Queeg is a bad commander. That’s not even particularly debatable. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/30 "2015-02-17T00:36:45Z")
They hadn’t heard of the Peter Principle when the book was written. Queeg had been promoted above his level of competence. Blaming others for his failures (the tow rope) was the beginning of his slippery slope into paranoia. Then there was the cowardice issues: the Yellow Stain and in the book there was another incident when (it’s been a while, lemme think) I think the Caine was under some fire or part of a fleet shelling an island or something and he made it a point to move to the opposite side of the superstructure from the side where the action was taking place. Queeg might not have been “crazy” when he took command, but by the court martial, he was certainly unfit for command. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/31 "2015-02-17T03:37:34Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > . . . the cowardice issues: the Yellow Stain and in the book there was another incident when (it’s been a while, lemme think) I think the Caine was under some fire or part of a fleet shelling an island or something and he made it a point to move to the opposite side of the superstructure from the side where the action was taking place. . . . I asked earlier, but no one has answered… What would the most likely outcome have been if the three officers had talked their problems out with the Admiral? Would he have stepped in like a white knight and fixed things up…or would he have just thrown them out of his office and told them, “Don’t go over your Captain’s head, ever?” ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/32 "2015-02-17T03:50:23Z")
In the book, Queeg’s behavior was already on the radar of the admiral and his staff. They discussed him as being a timid old lady. The admiral would want to know about the situation, and would have dealt with it. Admirals and generals and CEOs get where they are by their ablility to deal with mountains of little things. And hopefully he’d have appreciated Meryk’s sincere misgivings about reporting it, but recognized Keefer for the snake he was. Keefer’s pulling back, telling Meryk it was a bad idea to go to the admiral at the last minute was part of his game to ruin Meryk as well as Queeg. He held the entire regular navy in contempt, not just his captain. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/33 "2015-02-17T04:50:06Z")
As an aside, I wonder if Bogart’s portrayal of Queeg was at all inspired by Richard Nixon. I can’t watch the movie without seeing a little “Trick Dick” there. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/34 "2015-02-17T15:31:20Z")
To me, Queeg didn’t seem insane, just suffering with combat stress. (I haven’t read the book.) Presumedly, Queeg didn’t become a stress case over night. An Officer receives annual fitness reports. Why would so many of these reports be “pencil whipped”? Was it to get a poor officer transferred (to be someone else’s problem)? Or was the Navy so strapped for manpower that his malady didn’t prevent him from being transferred to a C.O. spot no one else wanted? Was Combat Fatigue still viewed as a “stigma” at the time? (Synonymous with cowardice.) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/35 "2015-02-17T15:37:23Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > As an aside, I wonder if Bogart’s portrayal of Queeg was at all inspired by Richard Nixon. I can’t watch the movie without seeing a little “Trick Dick” there. Book, 1951. Movie, 1954. I am uncertain if Nixon was known widely enough by 1950 to inspire any character portrayals here. My “gut” says no. The book’s wiki entry says that the author was inspired by some of his own WW2 experiences. (No actual mutinies, though. 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/36 "2015-02-17T15:52:38Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Presumedly, Queeg didn’t become a stress case over night. An Officer receives annual fitness reports. > > Why would so many of these reports be “pencil whipped”? Was it to get a poor officer transferred (to be someone else’s problem)? Or was the Navy so strapped for manpower that his malady didn’t prevent him from being transferred to a C.O. spot no one else wanted? Wasn’t this his first command? So he came up through the ranks as a small-task martinet, getting that commendation for the like-unto-the-strawberries investigation and so on, and never once needing to look at the big picture but only ever making sure everyone’s shirts were tucked in while someone else was in charge of, y’know, making sure the ship is going where it should when it should. And he assumes all junior officers will enthusiastically act like he did, which they don’t; and he still has a knack for personally zeroing in on small tasks, but it’s never gotten in the way before because he’s never had big stuff to keep track of. And maybe he’s never had a chance to display cowardice _on his own initiative_; possibly he’s even displayed courage, to the extent of having always done what he’s been told and never getting told _do whatever seems appropriate, it’s your call all the way_. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/37 "2015-02-17T16:08:26Z")
Yeah, it could have been that Queeg was a natural middle manager. Being made captain might have been too much since he didn’t have someone over him to keep him focused on important stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/38 "2015-02-17T16:18:12Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Book, 1951. Movie, 1954. I am uncertain if Nixon was known widely enough by 1950 to inspire any character portrayals here. My “gut” says no. [Book no, movie yes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkers_speech) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/39 "2015-02-17T16:28:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > [Book no, movie yes.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkers_speech) Thanks! That wiki entry seems to support the idea that Nixon became a more nationally recognized name. However, I don’t see the similarity between Bogart’s portrayal of Queeg, and anything in that wiki article as it describes Nixon demeanor. Do you see a connection? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/40 "2015-02-17T16:28:45Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think everybody agrees Queeg is a bad commander. That’s not even particularly debatable. Toxic leadership as currently defined goes well above what most would call being a bad commander. Which is why it is being cited as a possible stressor contributing to suicides. It is partially defined as those who “consistently use dysfunctional behaviors to deceive, intimidate, coerce, or unfairly punish others to get what they want for themselves.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719.md?page=3)