# The Caine Mutiny---Was Queeg really crazy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 15, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719 "2015-02-15T14:32:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/41 "2015-02-17T16:36:23Z")
My take, for what little it’s worth: Queeg was not “insane” or “paranoid.” He was a highy neurotic and insecure guy, but he was probably a perfectly adequate peacetime quartermaster. The people who knew him best would probably have told you, “Phil’s a little high-strung, but he’s okay deep down.” But in wartime, the Peter Principle kicked in, and he was promoted way above his level of competence. He was in way over his head, and knew it. He tried to command respect but didn’t really know how, except by acting like a petty tyrant. If he COULD have talked to a few of his subordinates, like Steve Maryk, maybe he could have told them, “I’ll level with you- I haven’t commanded a vessel in ages, and I’m going to have to rely on you men to bring me up to speed and keep this ship on an even keel while I grow into the job,” and things might have gone differently. But many of his junior officers treated him like a joke from Day One. Once he realized his men hated and disrespected him, he COULDN’T look to them for help or support. He was an incompetent as ever, but too insecure to admit it. He felt he had to crack the whip even harder. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/42 "2015-02-17T17:05:15Z")
By the way, if no one’s read it…the book is fantastic. All the stuff about Willie and May and Willie and his family. _There’s_ a remake I would go see. Though it would be expensive as f\*\*k to make properly. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/43 "2015-02-17T17:17:15Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > By the way, if no one’s read it…the book is fantastic. All the stuff about Willie and May and Willie and his family. > > _There’s_ a remake I would go see. Though it would be expensive as f\*\*k to make properly. Reading the Wikipedia synopsis for the book, Queeg does a hulluva lot more to tick off the crew, and Lt. Keith a little less of a likable character. > **[The Caine Mutiny](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Caine_Mutiny)** > > The Caine Mutiny is a 1952 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel by Herman Wouk. The novel grew out of Wouk's personal experiences aboard two destroyer-minesweepers in the Pacific Theater in World War II. Among its themes, it deals with the moral and ethical decisions made at sea by ship captains and other officers. The mutiny of the title is legalistic, not violent, and takes place during Typhoon Cobra, in December 1944. The court-martial that results provides the dramatic climax to the plot. > The novel ... I might get the book, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/44 "2015-02-17T17:24:17Z")
I may be too flippant, but I searched this page, and didn’t find what troubles me most. Ball bearings. From the first time I saw it, I was asking, “What the hell?” I asked everyone who was watching with me. And now I’m asking all of you – what is up with the ball bearings Queeg plays with? Is that not such a complete dead giveaway of mild to moderate insanity that even a moderately insane, moderately intelligent person would sublimate, at least when on the stand? I have nervous tics too, or maybe compulsions, and I’ve caught people staring at me when I was doing them in public. But holy hell, I don’t do them during job interviews, and definitely not taking the stand in a courtroom. It was even mocked during an episode of Night Court. For some reason, Dan is on the stand, and he pulls out ball bearings and goes, “What, I’m not on trial here.” That ball bearing is pretty much a trope for non-cartoon situations where we don’t actually want the forehead to open and a cuckoo to pop out. Or am I far off base? ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/45 "2015-02-17T17:31:21Z")
Was Queeg really crazy? Very difficult question to answer since Queeg was a fictional character. It would be hard enough to answer if he was a real person. But since he is fictional, people can offer their opinions, but how can anyone know for sure? He certainly seemed hard pressed to cope with tense situations. It didn’t help that he was surrounded with people like the Fred Macmurray character who made everything worse. I guess I would have to answer by saying there is just no way to know for sure. But the Jose Ferrer lawyer character really did a fine job of taking him apart on the witness stand. For those who haven’t seen the movie, I would recommend seeing it. That movie was very high quality. Humphrey Bogart made several excellent movies. IMO, his best was The Treasure of the Sierra Madre. If you’re looking for something to do on a rainy Sunday afternoon, that film simply cannot fail to entertain. It was just great. “Badges? You want to see our badges? We don’t need no stinkin’ badges. We don’t got to show you no stinkin’ badges.” > **[The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (1948) - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040897/)** > > The Treasure of the Sierra Madre: Directed by John Huston. With Humphrey Bogart, Walter Huston, Tim Holt, Bruce Bennett. Two down-on-their-luck Americans searching for work in 1920s Mexico convince an old prospector to help them mine for gold in the... IMDB rated this movie at 8.4 - a truly stunning accomplishment for a film made in 1948. Other people would say that “Cassablanca” was his finest film. But it was largel a romance movie and I think you have to be in a mood to enjoy romantic movies. > **[Casablanca (1942) - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/)** > > Casablanca: Directed by Michael Curtiz. With Humphrey Bogart, Ingrid Bergman, Paul Henreid, Claude Rains. A cynical expatriate American cafe owner struggles to decide whether or not to help his former lover and her fugitive husband escape the Nazis... Still, IMDB rated Cassablanca at 8.6 which was fairly amazing for a romance movie from 1942. I will finish this post by saying my next most favorite Bogart move was The Maltese Falcon. It was truly the quintessential Private Eye movie from the 1940s. It was rated 8.2 and anything over 8.0 is an excellent achievment. > **[The Maltese Falcon (1941) - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033870/)** > > The Maltese Falcon: Directed by John Huston. With Humphrey Bogart, Mary Astor, Gladys George, Peter Lorre. San Francisco private detective Sam Spade takes on a case that involves him with three eccentric criminals, a gorgeous liar and their quest for... ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/46 "2015-02-17T17:44:56Z")
From the IMDB’s “Trivia” section on the film: > [@IMDB](#): > > Humphrey Bogart’s tour-de-force performance in the climactic courtroom scene was so powerful that it completely captivated the onlooking film technicians and crewmen. After the scene’s completion, the company gave Bogart a round of thunderous applause. I kinda felt sorry for Queeg, there, in the court room. You can tell that, at the last moment, even he realized he was acting a little manic there, for a minute. And that’s indeed a good performance, for the actor to be able to conjure up that in my mind, with only gestures and facial expressions. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/47 "2015-02-17T18:01:49Z")
I read Queeg as having an obsessive fear of failure, that drives him to perfectionism and makes him unable to accept any setbacks. The book goes into detail that the movie didn’t have time for: that having been unable to bring the ship up to his impossible standards of perfection, he withdraws to his cabin, sleeping 12 hours and day and living on sweets. Basically, Queeg acts like he’s in continual danger of being tortured to death for failure. “Crazy”, not quite, but neurotic to the nines. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/48 "2015-02-17T18:02:44Z")
Casablanca is my favorite film, and Bogart’s The Maltese Falcon is in my top 10. They are both top notch movies, not just Bogart performances. The Big Sleep, To Have and Have Not, Key Largo are also wonderful, especially if you are a Lauren Bacall nut. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/49 "2015-02-17T18:18:26Z")
BTW, decades ago, I saw a Broadway production of \*\*\*The Caine Mutiny Court-Martial \*\*\*at the Circle in the Square Theater. I liked it enough to see it a second time. The first time, Michael Moriarty played Queeg. The second, time, Moriarty had switched to playing defense lawyer Barney Greenwald, and Queeg was played by Philip Bosco. Strangely enough, in the first show, Maryk was played by James WIddoes (Hoover in _ **Animal House** _), while Joe Namath was playing the role in the second one! Back to my point: if you’d seen Moriarty as Queeg, you’d have come away thinking, “Hell yes, Queeg is crazy! He’s a dangerous maniac convinced of his own righteousness.” If you’d seen Bosco, you would have felt sorry for Queeg, just as you did when Bogart played him. A good actor can do a lot of different things with Queeg. Moriarty made him scary, while Bosco made him pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/50 "2015-02-17T18:28:18Z")
Crazy? No way. A coward. A little paranoid. He froze under pressure and picked the worst possible time to snap out of it and decide now was a good time to assert his authority. In the book (don’t remember if it was in the movie) Queeg goes to his XO’s cabin and tries to have it all go away. The XO says that’s impossible cause it’s in the log and the bridge crew was there. Now if they’d used a little imagination, Queeg could have said he smashed his head during a roll and doesn’t remember a damn thing and very well may have been ranting and raving. And NOW let’s just forget this all happened, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/51 "2015-02-17T18:38:30Z")
1. HFS…Herman Wouk is still alive (99) 2. Anyone read “Winds of War” or “War and Remembrance”? Caine Mutiny is the only book of his that I’ve read and it’s just fantastic. The characters are very relatable…with a possible exception being the stuff about Willie sleeping with May and the aftermath of that. That’s definitely a product of its time that people may have a hard time relating to. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/52 "2015-02-17T18:40:48Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Queeg goes to his XO’s cabin and tries to have it all go away. The XO says that’s impossible cause it’s in the log and the bridge crew was there. Now if they’d used a little imagination, Queeg could have said he smashed his head during a roll and doesn’t remember a damn thing and very well may have been ranting and raving. And NOW let’s just forget this all happened, okay? “And the tow line?” “I hit my head then, too!” “Uh-huh. And the yellow stain?” “Hit to the head. Never saw it coming!” “And what about crashing into that sandbar?” “I, uh – wait, what? I don’t remember that.” “You’re not supposed to remember ANY of them!” “Trick question, eh? Well, I must’ve HIT MY HEAD, then; it’s ALL A BLUR!” \ “Queeg, you’re a disgrace to the uniform and the service.” \ “That’s not how I remember it!” ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/53 "2015-02-17T18:45:00Z")
Captain Queeg. The Fred Flintstone of the USN. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/54 "2015-02-17T18:53:27Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Captain Queeg. The Fred Flintstone of the USN. [rolls two rocks together in his palm] ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/55 "2015-02-17T18:56:56Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > 1. HFS…Herman Wouk is still alive (99) > > 2. Anyone read “Winds of War” or “War and Remembrance”? Caine Mutiny is the only book of his that I’ve read and it’s just fantastic. The characters are very relatable…with a possible exception being the stuff about Willie sleeping with May and the aftermath of that. That’s definitely a product of its time that people may have a hard time relating to. I have read both “Winds of War” and “War and Remembrance” and they are excellent too. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/56 "2015-02-17T19:18:31Z")
“The Winds of War” is the first novel I think of when considering Gumped history done right. The fictional viewpoint character actually has a valid in-story reason to be present at all these historical events. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/57 "2015-02-17T19:29:39Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > Ball bearings. > > From the first time I saw it, I was asking, “What the hell?” I asked everyone who was watching with me. And now I’m asking all of you – what is up with the ball bearings Queeg plays with? Is that not such a complete dead giveaway of mild to moderate insanity that even a moderately insane, moderately intelligent person would sublimate, at least when on the stand? … > Or am I far off base? Maybe not. It influenced the portrayal of another possibly-cracked commander under stress: [But it wasn’t bearings.](http://buckwheat333.tripod.com/trek3/commdecker.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/58 "2015-02-17T22:04:24Z")
For general purpose Bogart joy, y’all might like (and some of you will already know) the [Bold Venture](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bold_Venture) radio shows, with Lauren Bacall. The relationship is steamy – smoky! – and the adventure and intrigue are violent and direct. Very simplistic: bad guys come in and act mean, Bogie socks 'em. But still fun. (The minor characters, such as Moses and the police inspector, really make it come alive.) I only just now learned, from the Wikipedia link, that there was a TV version! Wow! Where to find it? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/59 "2015-02-17T22:04:43Z")
Could be worse, could be Ben Wa balls.:eek: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719/60 "2015-02-18T02:17:12Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Why would so many of these reports be “pencil whipped”? Was it to get a poor officer transferred (to be someone else’s problem)? Or was the Navy so strapped for manpower that his malady didn’t prevent him from being transferred to a C.O. spot no one else wanted? > > Was Combat Fatigue still viewed as a “stigma” at the time? (Synonymous with cowardice.) A little bit of each of those would be in play to make Queeg plausible. I don’t know if he’d have a hard time claiming combat fatigue as he had not seen that much more combat than his peers; knowledge of the finer details of psychological stress disorders was still early in its evolution. > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Wasn’t this his first command? So he came up through the ranks as a small-task martinet, getting that commendation for the like-unto-the-strawberries investigation and so on, and never once needing to look at the big picture but only ever making sure everyone’s shirts were tucked in while someone else was in charge of, y’know, making sure the ship is going where it should when it should. Yes, in his lower postings Queeg could rack up a good sheet of positive evaluations, earning them fair and square. I could imagine in WW2 you’d be expanding, and replacing losses, so fast that “Needs of the Service” requires a billet be filled with whoever’s the next man standing with the major checkboxes ticked, and let’s not be too picky if he’s no John Paul Jones… and Queeg had the checkmarks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-caine-mutiny-was-queeg-really-crazy/712719.md?page=4)