The Canadian Election Thread. (Or maybe not...)

There’s a huge difference in that the merger of the Alliance and PC parties was a reconcilation of two parties who had - quite recently - been one party anyway, more or less. The Liberals and NDP have never been the same party and have totally different origins.

But then you mention that, but the other things is, **the Liberals have, without the NDP’s help, won many elections against the Conservative Party. ** It would be shortsighted to assume it’s suddenly impossible to win elections from the middle when they were doing exactly that for generations.

I’m going to go out on a limb here, but I’d suggest that Alberta is not what you might think.

Here in the Bible Belt of southern Alberta, where “diversity” means that we have both Mormons and Fundamentalists, things aren’t much different from what I’ve found elsewhere. Many liquor stores, places open Sundays, bars, strip clubs (well, one in Lethbridge anyway),and other vices that are not popular with the religious. We don’t have a Gay Pride parade, but the local LGBT community (yes, we have one, complete with married gay couples) does have a rally at City Hall annually. As far as I am aware, the local hospital has never been picketed for doing abortions. In short, we’re not Bible-totin’, preachin’ hell-and-damnation, lurch the country to the far right in the name of Jesus, types; most people around here have little interest in that. In fact, I think it is safe to say that most Albertans are not like that, contrary to the way we are often portrayed elsewhere.

The big issue, as I see things, always boils down to taxes. Generally speaking, Albertans hate taxes, though they recognize why they pay them. To use a more specific example, taxes on defense = good, taxes on environmental initiatives = bad. So, the average Albertan thinks, “Buy those fighter jets, but don’t raise my taxes to pay for curbside recycling pickup. And you kids get off my oil sands!”

Continuing through with the tax thinking, health care as we currently know it is generally seen as a good thing. As might be expected, there is griping about what we pay, and what we receive–mostly along the lines of wait times, though this complaint is common in all provinces. But current initiatives by the provincial Tories to rein in health care spending through consolidating provision facilities and groups and such are being met with complaints from all sides in all locations. As such, I cannot see the Alberta contingent of MPs spearheading a radical change in federal health care thinking. While I am sure the issue will arise in Parliament, and some discussion will occur in the Commons; I feel confident in saying that the public system won’t go away, in other words. And abortion is just another item covered by Alberta Health’s schedule of benefits; no different from appendectomies or other surgical procedures–yes, every RC church and a few of the Fundamentalist ones have a sign against abortion, but it’s not a common topic of conversation; and it seems to be very low on the list of priorities for most people.

Gay marriage is a non-issue. Most Albertans recognize that the courts have settled that one and it is useless to try to reopen it; and from what I can see, most Albertans don’t want to open that one anyway. Oh sure, a few of the more radical and vocal Fundamentalists are up in arms, but nowhere along the lines of Fred Phelps. The extent of our Fundies’ public ire seems to be expressed in letters to the editor. Many of the more moderate religious people are simply glad that gay marriage doesn’t cost them any tax dollars–see, it’s the tax thinking again.

Capital punishment? No, that’s not coming back either. Yes, there are calls for it every time a monster such as Paul Bernardo or Robert Pickton comes along; and again, the far right blasts off angry letters to the editor. But (and you know by now I’m going to say this) most Albertans are not that far right. “Just put the monster away; make sure he’s no danger to me or my family” seems to be the thinking. Calls from death penalty supporters tend to be met with a counter-argument from the more moderate, who like to point out how much it costs to have a death penalty (appeals, motions, research, special death rows, etc.) as opposed to simply having a fair trial, perhaps an appeal, and then incarceration for life: once again, cost through taxes is being considered. But I will also state that when there are no Bernardos or Picktons in the news, capital punishment is off the radar of most people.

It is true that there is a perception that courts and judges are soft on crime, but I’d suggest that it is equally true that to most Albertans, “crime” consists of armed robberies, sexual assaults, first-degree murders, and other serious crimes that make the front page. Very little thought (if any) is given to the string of DUIs, shoplifters, guys who punch other guys in bar fights, and others who troop through provincial courtrooms every day. I haven’t heard many Albertans complaining that these latter criminals present enough of a threat that they deserve onerous (compared to now) sentences. I may be wrong, but I think Albertans, including those in Calgary and Edmonton, would like to see sentences “strengthened” for major crimes such as I described above, but are willing to leave the small stuff alone. So here, we may see a change; and I don’t think that more liberal voices in Calgary and Edmonton will have much influence.

In brief, with the exception of a few changes to the criminal law, I don’t see a radical shift to the far right–it’s not something that I see most Albertans as wanting. As I said, there are those exceptions, but while they tend to be good and loud at getting their message out there, they also tend to be relatively few in number. Where we may see change occurring is in fiscal conservatism–remember, taxes and what they are spent on are important to Albertans, and I can see some influence in Ottawa occurring here. What form that will take, I don’t know. But I guess we’ll find out.

I’m getting that impression, too.

I didn’t think that Saskatchewan was full of backward hicks either. Saskatoon is like what you describe in your post but still manages to elect homophobic pro-lifers. shrug I hope the Conservative victory is over finances.

Given some of the posts about Québec earlier in this thread…this is priceless. Isn’t it absolutely frustrating when people paint with such broad brushes? :wink:

I was all set to concede that, despite the Conservatives winning this election, the sun still came up today. Only it kind of didn’t…it’s really dark, rainy and gloomy out here and has been all day! :dubious:

There’s been a lot of talk about this election, obviously; it was nearly all I heard about at school (other than, you know, course matter). I don’t seem to remember there being this much discussion around campus leading up to and after the previous elections, though I could be wrong. I actually kind of feel like this is the first election I’ve been in where my vote may have mattered, and I’ve heard that echoed at school today (though most of my classmates have probably only been able to vote in one or two before this). It’s almost a shame the next one is in 4.5 years; suddenly it seems people are really interested in talking about politics and what they want from Canada, but I think that will fade quickly and certainly be gone by the next one (although there is a provincial one coming up soonish). I hope people remember their reactions to this round, and make a (another) strong push towards getting informed and voting next time.

The major defining attributes of Albertans as compared to some other Canadians:

  • Albertans are generally pro-business. They love small business, entrepreneurs, and ‘rugged individualists’, but they don’t mind big business either. You won’t see Wal-Mart protests here. There’s a lot of Texas in Alberta.

  • Albertans are fiscally conservative. We hate deficits, and we throw out governments that start generating them. We re-elected Ralph Klein by landslides when he took an axe to the Provincial budget when it got out of whack. Right now, the government here is in big trouble because they are perceived as being big spenders. The next election could see the Wild Rose Alliance party kick out the Progressive Conservatives.

  • There are a lot of social conservatives in the south, but they don’t have that much power because the real center of conservative power in Alberta is with the pro-business side, and they’re not about to screw up their agenda by pandering to a lot of religious talk. The most popular Premier we had was Ralph Klein, and he was a hard-drinking ex-liberal.

As an example of our most ‘extreme’ element, the Wild Rose Alliance Party had its leadership race last year - the race was between an old school social conservative vs a libertarian-leaning fiscal conservative. because that party is to the right of the conservatives, all the pundits assumed it was Reform party 2.0 and the social conservative would win the day. But the libertarian beat him like a rented mule.

The Wildrose Alliance got its start not because the PC government went socially liberal, but because it started spending a lot of money and running up big deficits.

The Wildrose Alliance is the farthest-right party in the most right-wing province in Canada, and they have already stated that they fully recognize the rights of gay people to marry and that they fully respect current abortion law and would not raise the issues of either gay marriage or abortion in any way. They have also said that they fully respect the Canada Health Act and would not seek to limit Albertan’s access to public health care. Their main issues are election reform (fixed election dates and the right of recall), low taxes, low regulations, and smaller government. They’re also opposed to policies like cap and trade and other restrictions on oil development, but then so is every other party in Alberta other than the greens and NDP, and they are a miniscule presence.

The Wildrose Alliance is currently the most popular party in Alberta, and as of last year was leading the ruling PC’s by 15 points in the polls.

I should add that one way in which Alberta is changing is through immigration. We have a lot of immigrants, but they tend to be the kind of immigrants drawn to a conservative culture. We have large communities of immigrants from India, China, and other parts of Asia, and they tend to be quite conservative communities. They are conservative but they’re not part of the Christian right. So the commonality between them tends to be on economic issues.

That seems like a bit of an odd perception. The Conservatives have been in power in Alberta for 40 frigging years. Before that the Social Credit party was in power for 35 years. So, unless you are including party leadership changes, you maybe threw out 1 government in the last 70 years and unless I’m mistaken Alberta wasn’t in deficit in 1970/71 when it happened*.

*eta: though I don’t know the timing between OPEC glutting the oil market and the election. I believe that’s when deficit loomed for Alberta.

Your post is, I hope, something that can be taken to heart by all Canadians.

The thing about Alberta provincial politics is that it’s very political machine driven. I like to joke that you can be any kind of Progressive Conservative you want, even an NDP conservative, as long as you work with the machine. In some ways we’re (or at least have been) a one-party state like Mexico.

So, you equate the Conservatives with those who run Libya, Syria, and Iran? There is this little thing called ‘perspective’ that I think you are missing.

Democracy is the right to vote for who you want to. I’ve not seen the Conservatives aborting this at any time in their history in Canada. Why do you think they’d do it now?

What historic institutions are the Conservatives threatening?

But, just on the assumption you are referring the protests at the G20, I’ll adress that. And I agree people’s rights were violated, but not who you think.
Where should protestors be allowed?
In the meeting room with the government representatives? What about their rights to represent their governments without uneccesary interuptions?
In the hall outside the room where reps are meeting? What about security considerations for the people who have to represent their governments?
In the streets outside the buildings where the reps meet? How about the rights of those people going to work and the business owners carrying on their trade that is disrupted by the protestors?
If you want to gather in the streets, you get valid permission to do so like any other group who wants to stage a parade. Otherwise, you get a fine and possibly carted away by the police if you don’t move along. Or, you book a venue and use that to put up signs and protest things you don’t like.
I agree that you have the right to protest, but I don’t agree you have the right to do it anywhere you please. Sucks to be you that the only media that cares to cover your issues are the ones hoping to see a police baton split open your head.
Maybe you, or to clarify - the protestors, should pick better things to protest. But that is their business on how they waste their time, not mine.
Don’t assume that I agree with how the government spent our money, either. I’m sure there are remote locations that are easier to secure that could handle such meetings far better than major cities. And if that meant representatives had to leave some of the lesser hanger ons at home, so be it.

Cite?

(For the fact that’s it’s actually run by and endorsed by her rather than someone just putting that up in her name. I’m very much inclined to believe the latter unless I get a cite.)

I’m inclined to think it’s fake. Her “award” is a Brownie badge for sewing, and all the photos of phone poles and posts…the NDP candidates who were not really expected to win but were running in a lot of these ridings are being referred to as candidats poteaux - “post candidates”- in the media here. I’m not sure if the term pre-dates this election or not; it refers to candidates in unwinnable ridings that are recruited to just spread the party’s message.

Besides, the only photo that seems to actually be of her is the NDP photo. She either has a fantastic self-deprecating sense of humour, or it’s a total fake.

I get it. You like them. Good for you.

Just so long as you realise that this party wouldn’t get more than about 4-5% nationally. And also that there’s a good reason for that. Running a libertarian in a Canadian federal election would be like running an avowed socialist for US president. It might be fun to watch, sort of like a train wreck.

But hey, dream on brother…

:smiley:

The page has been changed. Earlier in the day the pictures were all pictures of Vegas and of her partying in Vegas, which is why I said ‘party on’. But whatever… If you want to believe it’s fake, that’s fine. I don’t really care. I’m not looking to attack her, or the NDP. I just thought it was funny.

By the way, what would constitute a cite for a link to a facebook page? Am I supposed to get a sworn affidavit from someone that it’s real?

I was just describing Alberta politics, because someone asked. Some of us Albertans get tired of being painted as religious right rednecks all the time. No one said she should or would run for Federal office. But thanks for putting us in our place. We’ll just stay here in Alberta so you don’t have to get your panties in a twist.

I believe you, and it is funny. Somebody never imagined they’d be elected.

Which to me, is the telling point here. Quebec has re-engaged, and has done so by an overwhelming margin. Let’s hope that neither the NDP nor the Rest of Canada blows this opportunity.

RickJay - I just wanted to post a quick reply before going to bed. Respectfully, you are reading more into my post than I intended. I grant you that in the context of my earlier postings, ‘whatever legislation he wishes’ was a poor choice of words. Yes, of course the Conservatives will have to work within the Constitution and the Charter of Rights. They will also have to work with the provinces. I have always taken that as a given, and I was assuming that everyone else was, too.

The specific point of my post was to address something the Euphonious Polemic had said, to the effect that Prime Minister Stephen Harper should not use his mandate to ram through unpopular legislation. Prime Minister Harper, in concert with the Conservative MPs, have the freedom to pursue whatever legislation they feel is best for the country, within, of course, the bounds of the Constitution, the Charter of Rights and the proper relationship between the federal and provincial governments. I am sorry if, in light of earlier posts expressing my concern with their social Conservatism, you took my post as stating that they have assumed ultimate power.

Believe it or not, I have intended my last few posts to be conciliatory and respectful towards the Conservatives and their supporters. The tone is difficult - like the other 18.91 % of the voters who supported the Liberals, I’m extremely disappointed and unsure of what to do from here. I respect your point of view, even when I disagree with you, RickJay. And I agree - for the good of the country, we all now have to move forward.

What would you expect those people who voted for the Conservative option to do if they had not won a majority and Layton or Iggy managed to gain control of Parliament?
I guess you could put a rope around your neck and end it all, but that is bit of an over-reaction, don’t you think?

You responded to a respectful, reflective and honest post with an amount of (rather pointless) snark that suggests my concerns are valid ones. A person admits that they’re really disappointed by the election result, something we’ve all felt, does it in a mature and insightful manner in terms of explaining how they feel, and you come back with that? What did you accomplish there, exactly?

Le Ministere, everything after my first paragraph was directed at everyone in general (and not just folks in this thread), not you in particular.