The Canadian Election Thread. (Or maybe not...)

[mnemosyne]

@Spoons

Apologies if my message came across personally; I didn’t mean it to. My use of “you” was the generic one. Although after re-reading my post, I’ll concede that it may have appeared personal. Again, sorry about that.

You say you are sorry then go on and continue to attack Quebec over misconceptions, misunderstanding, blind anger and irrational rage. You aren’t sorry. I know you’re Canadian and apologizing is our national past-time and all, but please attempt to be sincere.

As for the “bigot” assertion, well, big deal. I’m saying nothing more that what is said so often out here in the west, and what I’ve heard on my travels in the English-speaking provinces of this country: who does Quebec think they are? Why are they constantly complaining? Why does Ottawa bend over backwards to make them happy? I’ve heard this from the wealthy and the poor; in coffee shops, bars, factories, and offices; in big cities and small towns from St. John’s to Victoria.

And I hear people say all kinds of crap about Ontarians, Westerners, Easterners, Maritimers, Northerners, Quebecers, you name it. I hear it all. But here’s the difference. I don’t believe it, I don’t spread it, and I don’t use it to justify attacking people because of where they are from.

Who does Quebec think they are? They are a province of 8 million predominantly French-speaking people who, until 60 or so years ago, could not work, be served or be adequately educated in their own language. It’s a recent, ugly history, with many people who lived it still alive. Some of the rhetoric is reactionary, some of it goes too far (pendulum effect) but at the end of the day they are a province who has stood up for their own rights, and are damn proud of who they are. They made demands because the feel - quite rightly - that for a long time they were treated as second-class citizens. They made demands because they could; that’s part of the beauty of a democracy (social democracy, parliamentary whatever the hell technical term we have here in Canada). Why does Ottawa bend over backwards? I’m not sure they do- Quebec doesn’t get a lot of what it asks for, but you only hear them asking, rarely do you hear the outcome. It’s enough for Quebec to ask to get people with views like yours all in a rage. But if you don’t ask, you can never receive.

Perhaps you don’t hear it, but I do. Perhaps your media tells you that the ROC is mean and nasty because it won’t give Quebec what it wants; while our media tells us that an ungrateful Quebec is bitching yet again about how it is so hard done by.

I do hear it. And it’s wrong. “My” media doesn’t say the ROC is mean and nasty - there is very little hate for the ROC beyond the few rabid asshole soverignists, who are, as I said, FEW. But you love to pick up on that and accuse the entire province of thinking the same way. I am telling you, we do not, just like I’m sure you’re not some raving lunatic fundamentalist anti-gay born-again Christian like some of the raving loons on the fringes of your regional politics.

Besides, as I said, “my” media includes the English-language newspapers as well as the French ones. I’ll read the points of view in the Vancouver Sun, the Winnipeg whateverthehellitis (it’s got a blue banner), the Toronto media, the G&M, National Post, Montreal’s Gazette, la Presse, CBC/Radio-Canada, Journal de Montreal, Métro…whatever happens to catch my eye and I have time to read. So “my” media is “your” media, get it? Just because you don’t read alternate points of view to your own doesn’t mean they aren’t out there. And just because I’m from Québec, doesn’t mean I won’t look beyond my province’s borders. You should try it some time.

If I’m a bigot; well then, so is the ROC.

I’m sure every other Canadian loves this broad brush you are painting them with :rolleyes:

To a degree, yes. You are from the only province where the majority of citizens (not necessarily you personally) feel the need to have their own federal party. The Liberals may be associated with Ontario and Quebec, and the Conservatives with Alberta, but none of those provinces, or any of the others feel the need to set up a federal party to represent their interests in Parliament.

And why not? If your region/province isn’t being adequately represented by your members of parliament why the fuck not ask your MPs to stand up for you? YOU ARE CANADIAN. YOU are what the federal government should be working for. Why accept a government that doesn’t work for you? You can hate on Québec all you want for speaking up, but I think your anger is misplaced. Stand up for yourself, for your province. Stand up for a better Canada, where everyone is well represented.

But Quebec has a federal party. Why? Is it special somehow? I might have a lot more respect for Quebecers who vote BQ and the BQ itself if (a) it dropped “Quebecois” from its name; and (b), if it ran candidates outside of Quebec. As it is, representing only Quebec and without ever running enough candidates to form a government, the BQ is seen by many in the ROC as only there to distract attention from issues that affect other regions or the country as a whole, and to flip-flop around in Opposition. In other words, we see the BQ as only there to stir stuff up.

Because that’s what you choose to see. I haven’t paid attention - is an individual outside of Québec actually barred from running as a BQ candidate, or is it just that no one has bothered to do so? They run in ridings where they think they can win: I think there are some ridings in Québec where there wasn’t even a Conservative candidate last election (or two ago? I forget).

You see it as trying to stir stuff up. Although I am not a supporter of the BQ, I see it as people in this province trying to improve their lot in life. Nothing is stopping you from doing the same, but your hate-on for Québec is blinding you from that fact.

And to advance separatism. It may not be a major issue, and may be way down on the BQ’s agenda right now, but it is always quietly bubbling away. In that sense, yes; a vote for the BQ is a “screw you” to the ROC. Honestly, what’s next? A Newfoundland Party to try to reopen the cod fisheries? A BC Party to legalize marijuana?

Why not? If every region begins to ask for more self-determination, if every region begins to question the way the federal government runs and functions, then who knows what could happen. The fear is dissolution of the country, but IMHO the more logical - and best for everyone - response would be to reassess the balance of power, reassess the division of funding, reassess the strings attached to federal money and projects. Get a better deal for everyone. But no one wants to do that, and any discussion about it brings up more hate for Québec from Meech Lake rather than other Canadians looking themselves in the mirror and asking what they really want from their country.

I know what it’s like to be dismissed out of hand because of where I am from. I am from Alberta. As such, I apparently cannot possibly understand what happens on Bay Street or in Ottawa; I supposedly only know pickup trucks, country music, and oil wealth. Heck, if you listen to others, I’m as rich as Midas, but I spend it like a drunken sailor. None of these assertions are true, of course, but they have been made. When I’m in Vancouver or Toronto, and I speak with a local who holds these views, I do my best to correct these assumptions.

So if you’re so noble as to correct assumptions about you, as an Albertan, they why the fuck would you continue to propagate hateful, ignorant, misinformed, stereotype-based assumptions about Québec?

If you don’t want to be dismissed out of hand because of where you are from, I would suggest that you, and those Quebecers who think as you do, work towards legitimizing Quebec’s voice outside of Quebec. Prove to us that Quebecers are not precious snowflakes who need special treatment from Ottawa. Indicate to us that Quebec’s concerns are valid, but no more nor less than any other province’s. I will concede that you, mnemosyne, do a good job of this here on the SDMB–now, you just need to get your message to the ROC.

Our concerns are valid. We speak French -we want that to continue, and rightly demand our government to grant that to us. We deserve education - we want to have our population be educated, and want some say in how that gets done. We are human, we want health-care, and want a say in how money for that gets spent. We have a large contribution to the military - we want a say in how our sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends and neighbours are treated, how they are protected, how they are used. Gah, I’m not even going to go further - our concerns are the same as yours. The difference, as I said earlier is until very recently, we had none of that. We dared ask, and you hate us for it.

I don’t think I’m better than you. But I am no worse than you. Québecois have the right to speak up - and they do. If you have a problem with that, the problem is yours.

Of course they do, but I’d suggest that they do so within the context of the parties that are presented for their consideration. Again, no current federal party presents itself as putting any single province first–except the BQ. No Liberal, Conservative, or NDP candidate says to a voter, “I’ll make sure your province’s concerns top our agenda.” No, they present themselves as candidates for a federal party, working to advance and improve Canada as a whole. Naturally, they do so according to their party’s agenda. Liberal candidates out here face an uphill battle because they are seen as not caring about Alberta; I’m sure Conservative candidates in Ontario face the same problem.

Sadly, we do not elect people to represent our interests in Parliament; we vote for people who belong to a party with a platform. My MP will never vote according to what the people of my region want; he or she will vote as the party dictates, even if it is contrary to what we want locally. If that’s the case, well, too bad. Unfortunately, “representing the interests of the voters who elected you” in Parliament isn’t possible under the current system.

Fair enough.

You say “sadly” and you say it isn’t possible to have your representatives represent you. Québec said “sadly” and are trying to make it possible. Again, you are free to do the same, if you can get past the blind anger and just see it for yourself.

FWIW, ideally, I’d want a reorganization of this country. A new deal between the provinces, territories and the federal government. I want Quebec to push for more bilingualism, because the workforce and resources we have can make this province so much richer and stronger if the language barrier wasn’t a wall we put up ourselves. I also think anyone who says they want to run for office shouldn’t be allowed to. I don’t expect any of that to happen, though.

[Rysto]

@mnemosyne

Our concerns are valid. We speak French -we want that to continue, and rightly demand our government to grant that to us. We deserve education - we want to have our population be educated, and want some say in how that gets done. We are human, we want health-care, and want a say in how money for that gets spent. We have a large contribution to the military - we want a say in how our sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends and neighbours are treated, how they are protected, how they are used. Gah, I’m not even going to go further - our concerns are the same as yours. The difference, as I said earlier is until very recently, we had none of that. We dared ask, and you hate us for it.

Oh, enough with the martyr complex. What pisses off the RoC is stuff like the $5 billion ransom note the BQ dropped on Stephen Harper in the last month.

[mnemosyne]

I’m either unaware of what “ransom note” you are talking about, or that inflammatory description doesn’t happen to trigger any recognition of events that I may have read about. Can you please explain what you mean, so that perhaps we can actually discuss the issue, rather than just feed your rage?

As for the martyr complex… I was asked to validate the concerns of people in Québec. I briefly attempted to do so. I made a point that they are fundamentally no different than the concerns of anyone else in any other province. You chose to attack me over it.

It’s clear that you and Spoons have already made up your minds and will choose any and every possible thing to attack me and my province, regardless of the reality of the situation. You will dismiss anything I or my province-mates have to say, just because of where we are born and who we identify as culturally. Your bigotry is showing.

[Muffin]

I look at the Bloc as a nice block against the Conservatives, for I find the Bloc’s positions on social issues tend to be more in tune with my preferences than I do the Conservative’s.

[Cat_Whisperer]

I think this is the “ransom note” in question.

So the Harper Government fell on the finding of contempt of parliament, not the budget, eh? I’ve missed too many news shows lately. Does anyone else find it suspicious that all the Conservative scandal is coming out at the same time; i.e. in time for the other three parties to start campaigning to replace the Conservatives? I have no delusions that the Conservative party is any cleaner or dirtier than any other party; I would like my Federal politicians to be smarter about hiding things, though, and not be quite so obvious.

[mnemosyne]

Right, because an editorial in Maclean’s magazine, written in strong anti-Québec language is a “ransom note” from a political party.

The author says it himself - half the money is to rectify historical grievances. I know the 2.2B has to do with money every other province received, (in proportional amounts) after complying with a federal request to harmonize the way federal and provincial taxes were collected. From my very quick attempt to understand the situation (read: 2 articles just now instead of doing homework (G&M and TorStar)), Québec was the first to do so, picked up the tab itself, then the rules changed and the federal government paid for everyone else. Why the hell wouldn’t Québec want their money back on that? Is there more to it that I’m not aware of? Undoubtedly, and perhaps the number is less than claimed, or maybe it’s more, but on the face of it, it’s a perfectly legitimate request.
I really don’t have the time to try and figure out what the others are all about, let alone determine how legitimate they are (and I have no intention of ever doing so, beyond finding out for my own interest - the Bloc is a party of politicians like any other, with both legitimate aspects and completely assholish ones).

But it doesn’t matter. In the end, it all boils down to this:

The residents of Québec, as Canadians, have the right to vote for members of the federal parliament that they feel represent them, same as anyone else in Canada. The residents of Québec have chosen these people to represent them. These people are doing what they believe they were hired to do: they make requests in line with the interests of the people they are representing. Deal with it, because that’s the way this country works. If your MP doesn’t do this for you, then vote for someone else. To dismiss the opinions of 8 million people out of hand because you disagree with a few of them is childish, hateful and wrong.

I have to go design an aircraft vertical stabilizer now. I’m willing to discuss individual election issues, but I think I’m done trying to explain to people why 8 million Canadians should be allowed to have a say in the House of Commons. I don’t think there’s much point - to some, I and everyone in this province is a monster, and I don’t have the energy to try and prove them wrong. I shouldn’t have to.

[newcomer]

@mnemosyne

I have to go design an aircraft vertical stabilizer now. I’m willing to discuss individual election issues, but I think I’m done trying to explain to people why 8 million Canadians should be allowed to have a say in the House of Commons. I don’t think there’s much point - to some, I and everyone in this province is a monster, and I don’t have the energy to try and prove them wrong. I shouldn’t have to.

Agreed.

I’m actually appalled that you need to explain this to a fellow Canadian.

[Cat_Whisperer]

What a microcosm of Canada we have in this thread.

[Rysto]

@mnemosyne

Right, because an editorial in Maclean’s magazine, written in strong anti-Québec language is a “ransom note” from a political party.

Maclean’s would have been the last cite I would have chosen. However, for once they got the basic facts right.

From my very quick attempt to understand the situation (read: 2 articles just now instead of doing homework (G&M and TorStar)), Québec was the first to do so, picked up the tab itself, then the rules changed and the federal government paid for everyone else. Why the hell wouldn’t Québec want their money back on that?

Because there isn’t any tab to pick up. There never was, and that goes for the other provinces as well. If you want to complain that the other provinces had to be bribed to make the change, I’m right behind you

the Bloc is a party of politicians like any other, with both legitimate aspects and completely assholish ones

Sure, but the problem is that the Bloc’s assholish aspects end up being a gigantic “Screw you, I got mine!” to the rest of Canada. That tends to stick in people’s craw.

These people are doing what they believe they were hired to do: they make requests in line with the interests of the people they are representing. Deal with it, because that’s the way this country works. If your MP doesn’t do this for you, then vote for someone else.

But I don’t want my MP to say “Screw you, I’ve got mine.” I don’t want my MP to always act for Waterloo, or even for Ontario. I want my MP to act for Canada. This country is hurt, not helped, when renationalized special interests are appeased. That means to Canada getting shut out of free trade talks with Korea because entrenched agricultural interests in Ontario want to keep in place protectionist supply chain management. It means that Canada loses access to foreign investment in all of its companies because Saskatchewan is worried about short-term losses in tax revenue that would have arisen from the Potash Corp. takeover. It means that Canada keeps getting hefty tariffs imposed on software lumber exports and has to go through expensive, yet future litigation because BC keeps finding new ways to subsidize its lumber industry.

Canada needs less regionalism, not more.

I have to go design an aircraft vertical stabilizer now. I’m willing to discuss individual election issues, but I think I’m done trying to explain to people why 8 million Canadians should be allowed to have a say in the House of Commons.

You need to dial down the rhetoric about 7 notches. The fascist anglais are not marching troops into Quebec and taking away your democratic rights.

[mnemosyne]

shrug You see what you choose to see. I will not defend each and every action taken by the Bloc. I simply defend the rights of the people of Québec to vote for whom they wish, and to use their own motivations to do so. You don’t have to agree with me, you don’t have to agree with them. But do not belittle us, do not insult us, do not insult me.
By the way, your last line? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA Most of this province would consider me anglais (I identify as bilingual)- you really do hate so much you don’t even care who you throw your insults at. It’s kind of sad, really.

[Rysto]

@mnemosyne

you really do hate so much you don’t even care who you throw your insults at. It’s kind of sad, really.

Any hatred that you believe is spewing from me exists only in your own head. It is you who came out swinging, saying that the rest of Canada wants to take away your right to eduction, to health care, to even vote.

[Leaffan]

@Muffin

The record disagrees with you.

Let’s start with your accusation of railroading. For that to take place, there would have to have been bias on the part of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs that found the government in contempt was chaired by a Conservative, and had the same number of Conservatives sitting on it as all other parties combined (6 Conservatives, 3 Liberals, 2 Blocs, 1 NDP). Despite this, the Committee still found the government in contempt.

When brought into the matter, the Speaker of the House of Commons did not find bias or railroading, but instead found that the government had failed in its productions without providing an explanation.

The long-time Speaker of the House of Commons, who back at the dawn of time (1993) had been the Chair of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, ruled on 9 March 2011 that it was an issue of privilege, and referred to his previous 27 April 2010 citing of the House of Commons Procedure and Practice that states that the power of the House of Commons or of standing committees to order the production of papers and records is “broad,” “absolute,” and “on the surface appears to be without restriction.”

On 17 February 2011, the Speaker noted that the disclosure provided by the government did not constitute all of the information that had been ordered; that he found the lack of response on the part of the government on this matter was “unsettling;” that what was of greater concern was “the absence of an
explanation for the omissions;” and that this was a serious matter, which went “to the
heart of the House’s undoubted role in holding the government to account.”

I’m having a hard time finding out exactly who are members on the The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

What I did find is this:

The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, dominated by opposition MPs, last week recommended the government be held in contempt for failing to provide sufficient information on its plans for new prisons and fighter jets.

Now, without going all **Rysto **on me, can you please provide a membership list?

Thanks.

[mnemosyne]

@Rysto

Any hatred that you believe is spewing from me exists only in your own head. It is you who came out swinging, saying that the rest of Canada wants to take away your right to eduction, to health care, to even vote.

I did not say such a thing. I do not believe such a thing. Those are assumptions or motivations that you are ascribing to me and this province based upon your own misguided ideas, not upon fact. You have either mistakenly or deliberately misread what I have said, ignored it’s context, and/or are simply unable to fairly have this discussion.

I wanted to talk about Canadian politics and the issues affecting this country leading into this election. I am done trying to defend and the history, motivations, and ideas that impact my province, especially to people who will not listen to what I say.

[Muffin]

@Leaffan

I’m having a hard time finding out exactly who are members on the The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

What I did find is this:

Now, without going all **Rysto **on me, can you please provide a membership list?

Thanks.

Go to the link to the report that I provided in my post: http://www2.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/Committee/403/PROC/Reports/RP5047570/403_PROC_Rpt27_PDF/403_PROC_Rpt27-e.pdf

At you will have seen from reading the report to which I linked, page iii is the list of the committee members, including the Chair, two Assistant Chairs, and Members – a dozen MPs all together.

Then check each for each MP’s affiliation on Parliament’s list at http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfParliament/MainMPsCompleteList.aspx?TimePeriod=Current&Language=E, or just visit their websites.

Here’s what I came up with: six Conservatives a leaping, three Liberals lamenting, two Bloc a blocking, and an NDP in a pear tree:

Joe Preston (C)
Claude DeBellefeuille (B)
Yasmin Ratansi (L)
Steven Blaney (C)
Yvon Godin (N)
Tom Lukiwski (C)
Scott Reid (C)
Terence Young (C)
Harold Albrecht (C)
Judy Foote (L)
Mario Laframboise (B)
Marcel Proulx ( L)

[Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela]

@Leaffan

Now, without going all **Rysto **on me, can you please provide a membership list?

Thanks.

Try this link - from www2.parl.gc.ca

ETA: beaten by Muffin.

[Rysto]

I’ll admit that I probably misread you on the health-care thing, but as to the other two:

@mnemosyne

Our concerns are valid. We speak French -we want that to continue, and rightly demand our government to grant that to us. We deserve education - we want to have our population be educated, and want some say in how that gets done. We are human, we want health-care, and want a say in how money for that gets spent. We have a large contribution to the military - we want a say in how our sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends and neighbours are treated, how they are protected, how they are used. Gah, I’m not even going to go further - our concerns are the same as yours. The difference, as I said earlier is until very recently, we had none of that. We dared ask, and you hate us for it.

@mnemosyne

I have to go design an aircraft vertical stabilizer now. I’m willing to discuss individual election issues, but I think I’m done trying to explain to people why 8 million Canadians should be allowed to have a say in the House of Commons.

(bolding mine)

Who does Quebec think they are? They are a province of 8 million predominantly French-speaking people who, until 60 or so years ago, could not work, be served or be adequately educated in their own language. It’s a recent, ugly history, with many people who lived it still alive.

You are talking about something that happened before my parents were born. If you want to condemn me for the sins of my grandfathers go ahead, but don’t expect me to take you all that seriously.

[Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela]

Yes, it’s very tough when one region of the country will not change their minds one iota and insists on imposing their agenda to the detriment of the country as a whole. I mean, really - if they are so stuck in that mindset, nobody can work with them. There are times when I wish they would just leave, already. Don’t get me wrong - some of my friends come from there and they seem alright, but when the conversation turns to politics, I don’t think they’re from a different province, I think they’re from a different planet. I know they have a different history, and a different culture, and historical grievances but do I have to hear about all the f@cking time?

Quick - am I talking about Québec or Alberta?

[Ike_Witt]

@Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela

Quick - am I talking about Québec or Alberta?

I’d say Québec. I don’t recall Alberta ever claiming a distinct culture from the rest of Canada.

[Cat_Whisperer]

I’ve figured out what has been bothering me about the idea of the Bloc having a valid say in representing Quebec as a federal party - each province has a provincial government to represent its provincial interests. Quebec through the Bloc wants TWO says in provincial affairs.

[ThePylon]

This is kinda funny, kinda scary - It’s like we’re a grown up country … we’ve got political astroturfing!

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