# The Canadian Election **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274 "2004-05-27T01:42:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/201 "2004-06-23T00:06:42Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > [sidebar] > > By the way, what is all this flap about child porn? I’ve been on holidays for the past two weeks and wasn’t following the news. Can anyone give me a quick summary? > > [/sidebar] During the English language debate, the issue was touched on when Stephen Harper, attempting to explain when he might use the notwithstanding clause, mentioned he might use it to stop child porn. He didn’t explain why. Anyway, last week Michael Briere pleaded guilty to the murder of Holly Jones, a 10-year-old girl he kidnapped, raped, sawed into pieces and disposed of in Etobicoke last year - just a few blocks from my house, actually. During his court statement he blamed child porn for driving him to do it. Then, in a bizarre series of moves on Friday, the Conservative Party released, then recalled, then released again, and then recalled again a press release titled “Paul Martin Supports Child Porn?” I’m not making that up. The release hinted that Martin’s voting record suggested that he is not opposed to child porn. (Martin voted against a private member’s bill that would have banned almost anything that could be vaguely construed as child porn, including stuff that obviously isn’t.) Anyway, the Conservatives did recall the release, but Harper refused to apologize or conduct any real damage control for what really is a pretty nasty, scurrilous insult, and what appeared to almost everyone, especially us here in Toronto, to be an attempt to capitalize on the Holly Jones tragedy. Harper went on to claim the Liberals have a poor record on child porn, although to be quite honest - and I’m a small-c conservative, remember - I cannot think of any objective reason to think that. Unsurprisingly, the Conservatives have suddenly lost some of their lead in the race. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/202 "2004-06-23T00:30:34Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > [sidebar] > > By the way, what is all this flap about child porn? I’ve been on holidays for the past two weeks and wasn’t following the news. Can anyone give me a quick summary? > > [/sidebar] Tory press releases said that Martin “personally supported” child porn, and so did the entirety of the NDP. This on the grounds that they hadn’t voted for a Conservative (or probably Alliance, I guess) bill that would have closed the “loophole” in current child porn laws which don’t criminilize fiction, drawings, etc. I’d expect it wouldn’t be too hard to find links with more details on cbc or the globe and mail. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/203 "2004-06-23T02:19:43Z")
Thanks, guys. I remember seeing the headlines about Briere and thinking that the Tories couldn’t be stupid enough to try to link Martin’s position on an Opposition bill into support for a sadistic pædophilic murderer. Guess I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/204 "2004-06-23T02:29:37Z")
> [@shirt](#): > > First off, as a newbie here, wow Im impressed with the length and depth of discussion here. I spent several hours reading this thread. Welcome to the SDMB! It can be quite a ride here, especially on the Great Debates forum, but I always find the postings interesting and informative - I’ve come to rely on the Dope as an alternative to the talking heads on tv. Hope you have fun and stick around - best use of $15 going! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/205 "2004-06-23T02:36:27Z")
The same day that the National Post is predicting a Tory minority [see my previous post on p. 4], the [Globe and Mail](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040622.elharp0622_@/BNStory/specialDecision2004/) says that the Liberals have regained the lead overall, and particularly in Ontario: > [@](#): > > Mr. Harper, who has enjoyed a slight lead over Paul Martin’s Liberal party for the last few weeks, found himself on the down-side of the numbers game Tuesday after a Globe and Mail poll showed the Liberals with 34 per cent support of decided voters, as compared with 28 per cent for the Tories and 16 per cent for the NDP. > > The poll, conducted by Ipsos-Reid for CTV and The Globe and Mail and published Tuesday, shows that the largest indicator of a change in support came in Ontario, where the Liberals have moved back up to the 42-per-cent support level they had enjoyed before the election was called, while the Tories have dropped eight points to 30 per cent in Ontario. The NDP is at 20 per cent in the province, considered to be key in the election as it has 106 of the country’s 308 seats. Far as I can tell, it’s still anyone’s game because of the extremely volatile electorate. Every vote will count this time. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/206 "2004-06-23T02:54:37Z")
> [@cdnguy](#): > > See my problem with this is its quite possible that a vote for NDP or Green will be in actuality a vote for the Conservative party by allowing them to get the balance of power in Parliament. Imagine if you will, the focus possible if the NDP formed the opposition. Did you notice the focus on economic issues when the fiscal conservative sat across from the government? Think that kind of political shifting of the public consciousness might happen if social progressives sat in opposition? I do. > [@cdnguy](#): > > I honestly don’t think the need to keep Ontario happy would be enough to stop the Alliance from instituting there backwards social policies. And I believe social policies should be the major issues. Right, because political parties dislike being in power. Those 100 odd seats (~33% of the House) really wouldn’t be needed next time they go for a mandate from the public. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/207 "2004-06-23T03:01:14Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > Every vote will count this time. Indeed. And every riding matters. For a change, I might not see election coverage starting with Peter Mansbridge saying “And now we welcome viewers in Saskatchewan and Alberta. And we can tell you this. There will be a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ majority government.” Oh goody. Why don’t we just not bother counting up the votes out here, then? Course, there was that court decision about election coverage starting before polls close out west. Does anyone know if CBC et al are broadcasting results nationwide the minute they start coming in? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/208 "2004-06-23T03:12:43Z")
The weird thing about it is that it showed incredibly bad political judgement. Attacks, even scurrilous ones, have been part of politics for a long time (even though this one is way over the line). But the thing is, whoever thought this could possibly work in the PC’s favor is an absolute political moron. The only people an ad like that would appeal to would be the christian right, which is already a total lock for the PCs. Everyone else was horrified. Stupid, stupid move. And also sleazy and unethical. Still, I’m going to wind up holding my nose and voting conservative. The liberals really, really have to go. It’ll even be good for them to be out of power for a while - time to shake out and retire the field of old corrupt cronies that have been running Canada like their personal fiefdom for a long time. Maybe next time around, they’ll act like they are serving the people and not themselves. So if the Liberals have to go, that leaves the NDP and the Conservatives. And frankly, I think the NDP are nuts. They’re out in Dennis Kucinich land when it comes to their policies. They are trade protectionists, which right there disqualifies them. Couple that with their reflexive anti-Americanism, and they’ll be an economic disaster. In fact, the NDP want government to meddle in the economy like you wouldn’t believe. They want to institute new industrial policy. They want government to become ‘partners’ with trade unions. They want R&D grants for the auto industry (along with tariffs on auto imports). They want to implement closed shop rules and make it illegal for companies to hire replacement workers in the event of strikes. They want a ‘watchdog agency’ to limit foreign investment in Canada! Most countries actually seek out foreign investment. They want to ‘proactively protect’ our film and television industry. They want to institute steel tariffs to prevent the horror of Canadians having cheap steel dumped on them to build things with. The NDP also want to protect the ‘family farm’ by offering special social programs that will supplement farm incomes in lean years and ‘protect’ against disasters and ‘adverse trade rules’ (i.e. farm subsidies). And for assinine policies, you’d be hard pressed to match the NDP’s planned ban on genetically modified crops. Because when you want to be competitive, I guess it really helps if you prevent Canadian farmers from using modern technology. They’re going to need those subsidies. And the list goes on. Those are just from my sampling of two of the eight ‘platform’ categories of the NDP. They are economically illiterate. Can’t vote for 'em. That pretty much leaves the Conservatives. Actually, I wish the Rhino party was running. They had a sensible platform last time. For instance, they wanted to flatten the Rocky Mountains so that Alberta could get another 20 minutes of daylight. We need that kind of visionary yet sensible thinking in Canadian politics. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/209 "2004-06-23T03:29:10Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Actually, I wish the Rhino party was running. They had a sensible platform last time. For instance, they wanted to flatten the Rocky Mountains so that Alberta could get another 20 minutes of daylight. We need that kind of visionary yet sensible thinking in Canadian politics. I’m not sure that would actually work, since they also promised to decrease the speed of light in order to ease traffic congestion in Vancouver. I think the two would cancel each other out, leaving Albertans still in the dark. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/210 "2004-06-23T03:35:13Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Still, I’m going to wind up holding my nose and voting conservative. Couldn’t have said it better myself. I really see no good option. The Conservatives have too many social regressives for my liking and I suspect they’ll form an alliance with the separatists, which turns my stomach. We all know how well that worked out when Brian Mulroney tried it. On the other hand, the Liberals have to go (and aren’t as socially progressive as they’d like you to believe.) The party needs new blood, which won’t happen if they aren’t punished for stealing all our money. The NDP would put half a million people out of work. I gotta tell ya, Green almost had me this time. I am considering joining the Conservatives to try to change them from the inside to a party I could get behind - a more libertarian conservative approach. Not too far, but we could use a more socially progressive conservatism. If that fails I’m gonna start a new party and you’re all welcome to join. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/211 "2004-06-23T03:44:33Z")
Don’t forget, there’s always the Marijuana Party. Oh, and the Libertarians managed to get registered this time as well. ---
**Author:** ![shirt\_brown\_honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@shirt\_brown\_honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shirt_brown_honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/212 "2004-06-23T04:02:33Z")
Thanks for the welcome Northern Piper. I am somewhat sorry I voted in the advance polls yesterday. However, even as I voted my conscience, I needed my Super Canadian Election Day Clothespin. ™ It was easier to be an idealist before I started to make a decent wage. I work in health care. (Registered Nurse) I now live in an underserviced area, but almost everywhere I have lived in this country (I’ve lived in 4 different provinces, and voted in three…) has had its share of under serviced, long wait lists, difficulty finding a family doctor… I have NO FREAKING CLUE what I would do if I was suddenly health minister. (Not something likely to happen, but at least I admit I have no solutions)Im left-leaning in all social policies, etc, but on CBC radio on Sunday morning they were talking about Native-run free for service MRI clinic in Saskatoon. I really couldn’t argue with that clinic. I make a good wage on paper but with student debt and other problems Im cash poor. I don’t want to pay higher taxes, but I appreciate the impact that social programs, breakfasts for kids, safe injection sites, etc have in saving money in the long run. I thought Jack Layton was pushy and rude in the debates, although his statements and appearance were well polished. Harper and his ilk frighten me for the usual reasons left leaning individuals dislike Reform/Alliance etc… Paul Martins Liberals are corrupt. I could never trust someone who has been so Mad for Power as he as been for years. If I voted next week on election day, I might have voted differently. But today the Globe and Mail reports the Liberals ahead 6% in polls, so maybe they don’t need my vote to stop the New Conservatives. I voted with my conscience, not my T-4. But as a Mommiy with a baby and a profession I don’t have all the ideals anymore. Damn growing up sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/213 "2004-06-23T04:19:58Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > They want to implement closed shop rules Can you elaborate a bit on this one, **Sam**? I don’t understand what the NDP is pushing for, since the [Canada Labour Code](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/L-2/16903.html#rid-16996) already allows the employer and the union to agree to union shop and closed shop clauses in a collective agreement: > [@](#): > > **Collective agreement may contain certain provisions** > > **68.** Nothing in this Part prohibits the parties to a collective agreement from including in the collective agreement a provision > > (a) requiring, as a condition of employment, membership in a specified trade union; or > > (b) granting a preference of employment to members of a specified trade union. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/214 "2004-06-23T04:21:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I am considering joining the Conservatives to try to change them from the inside to a party I could get behind - a more libertarian conservative approach. Not too far, but we could use a more socially progressive conservatism. If that fails I’m gonna start a new party and you’re all welcome to join. We used to have a party like that - it was called the Progressive Conservative Party. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/215 "2004-06-23T04:30:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I gotta tell ya, Green almost had me this time. They’ve got me, even though their candidate in my riding is a 20 year old university student. I find myself quite shocked at the sensibleness of their platform – and when’s the last time you saw a Green Party platform that included reducing personal income tax? More than just being a ‘protest vote’, they’re someone I’d like to see get a voice in Canadian politics, even if I don’t agree with every thing in their policy book. Might smarten up the NDP some. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/216 "2004-06-23T04:45:15Z")
From [their platform](http://www.ndp.ca/ftp/platform/en/jobs.php): > [@](#): > > Implementing federal laws to outlaw replacement workers in strikes or lockouts in areas of federal jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/217 "2004-06-23T05:04:39Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > From [their platform](http://www.ndp.ca/ftp/platform/en/jobs.php): Why is that something to get worked up about? All it means is that an NDP govt wouldn’t hire scabs. This surpises you? The next govt could repeal the rule, if they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/218 "2004-06-23T05:16:19Z")
Does ‘federal jurisdiction’ just mean federal employees? Or something more? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/219 "2004-06-23T05:17:45Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > From [their platform](http://www.ndp.ca/ftp/platform/en/jobs.php): > > > [@](#): > > > > Implementing federal laws to outlaw replacement workers in strikes or lockouts in areas of federal jurisdiction. But that’s not a closed shop. A ban on replacement workers only has effect during a strike. A closed shop lasts as long as the collective agreement is in force, even if there’s no strike. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274/220 "2004-06-23T05:25:09Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Does ‘federal jurisdiction’ just mean federal employees? Or something more? It’s more than just federal employees. It means all industries that are subject to federal labour laws, through section 91 of the [Constitution Act, 1867](http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/const/c1867_e.html#distribution). The _Canada Labour Code_ summarises the areas of federal jurisdiction as follows: > [@](#): > > 1. In this Act, > > “federal work, undertaking or business” means any work, undertaking or business that is within the legislative authority of Parliament, including, without restricting the generality of the foregoing, > > (a) a work, undertaking or business operated or carried on for or in connection with navigation and shipping, whether inland or maritime, including the operation of ships and transportation by ship anywhere in Canada, > > (b) a railway, canal, telegraph or other work or undertaking connecting any province with any other province, or extending beyond the limits of a province, > > © a line of ships connecting a province with any other province, or extending beyond the limits of a province, > > (d) a ferry between any province and any other province or between any province and any country other than Canada, > > (e) aerodromes, aircraft or a line of air transportation, > > (f) a radio broadcasting station, > > (g) a bank or an authorized foreign bank within the meaning of section 2 of the Bank Act, > > (h) a work or undertaking that, although wholly situated within a province, is before or after its execution declared by Parliament to be for the general advantage of Canada or for the advantage of two or more of the provinces, > > (i) a work, undertaking or business outside the exclusive legislative authority of the legislatures of the provinces, and > > (j) a work, undertaking or activity in respect of which federal laws within the meaning of section 2 of the Oceans Act apply pursuant to section 20 of that Act and any regulations made pursuant to paragraph 26(1)(k) of that Act. I’ve seen estimates which suggest that no more than 10% of the Canadian workforce is subject to federal labour laws. The other 90% are under provincial labour laws. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadian-election/247274.md?page=12)