# The Canadope Café, 2014 Edition: In 3-D! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 1, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612 "2014-01-01T05:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/241 "2014-01-29T07:06:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > **Jimbo** , I think you’re confusing an upgrader with a refinery. Upgraders convert bitumen into artificial crude oil. Refineries then further refine the crude into other products. > > Upgraders have been built recently, such as the Regina Upgrader. According to the wiki article on upgraders, they have also been built in … Alberta, near the Athabaska oil sands. > > [Upgrader - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrader) > > So the ownership of the oil companies doesn’t affect where upgraders are built, it appears - it’s driven by economics. > > Additionally, I am not an economist, but I assume that if extensive processing of bitumen through an upgrader is required, that will increase the cost of the product - so even if the artificial crude is the equivalent of WTI, it would not be as competitive in price - the cost of processing it would increase its price, even if it is functionally equivalent to WTI. That presumably is taken into account in the pricing of heavy oils; if they need more processing to make them equivalent to natural light crude, their selling price out of the ground will be less than light crudes, to take the processing cost into account. > > As well, to the best of my knowledge, royalties are based on the quality of the product as it comes out of the ground, not what it potentially could be turned into through processing. So even if bitumen can be upgraded, that doesn’t mean the royalty will be based on that upgraded product. Royalties are based on the value when first extracted. > > Finally, I would really appreciate it if you could explain your repeated references to the feds getting “pennies on the dollar” for “our oil.” As mentioned earlier, the feds don’t get any royalties for oil extracted. To answer your last question first, as noted up thread, the Feds collect a 15% tax on oil & gas revenues so, presumably, if we are selling our product for substantially less than the WTI price, it means the Federal government’s 15% will be less than it would be for product sold at WTI pricing. That said, the more I’m reading on this subject, the less committed I am to my position. If I’m reading my latest research correctly, WCS is not so much an under-refined product as it is a crude oil that simply carries less real value on the open market compared to WTI crude. That being the case, it’ll trade at what the market will bear irrespective of where it gets upgraded or refined. Having said all that, the fact that virtually our only market is the US, in large part because they own most of the product and make all the decisions keeps the value of WCS artificially low whereas better access to other markets, like China and India, might help drive the WCS price up. But it also would seem that there isn’t so much a bitumen bubble as there is a “our oil is of a lower grade than the standard” bubble. In that respect, I’m content to concede that point and further hate the Alberta Conservatives and the local media for inventing a problem and misleading us into believing that we’re suffering from one problem when it is, in fact, another. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/242 "2014-01-29T07:12:19Z")
Two face masks, hood, insulated helmet and ski goggles – still cold when up to speed. Anyone have an old space suit helmet for sale? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/243 "2014-01-29T07:19:13Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > He’s not from Toronto, he’s from Etobicoke!! Even though we’re supposed to be all happily getting along since the amalgamation in 1998, there is a massive cultural difference between Toronto and Etobicoke! Rob Ford is the massive cultural difference from Etobicoke. Stephen Harper is just the Prime Minister from Etobicoke. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/244 "2014-01-29T08:56:44Z")
Fair enough. Stephen Harper is originally from Etobicoke, Ontario. Yet he represents a riding in Alberta, and certain Canadians hate him with a passion. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/245 "2014-01-29T13:07:55Z")
I am discomfited by sentences containing both ‘Stephen Harper’ and ‘passion’. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/246 "2014-01-29T15:02:44Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Two face masks, hood, insulated helmet and ski goggles – still cold when up to speed. Anyone have an old space suit helmet for sale? How about [this](http://opinion.financialpost.com/2014/01/28/terence-corcoran-why-canada-should-forget-the-arctic-and-hit-this-beach/http://) instead? I think Robert Borden was way ahead of his time… Lol, Thanks **Gorsnak** , I needed that! ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/247 "2014-01-29T15:53:50Z")
Very interesting breaking news - Justin Trudeau [announces that Liberal senators](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justin-trudeau-to-remove-senators-from-liberal-caucus-1.2515273?cmp=rss) will no longer be members of the Liberal caucus, but must now sit as independents. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/248 "2014-01-29T16:32:30Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Very interesting breaking news - Justin Trudeau [announces that Liberal senators](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justin-trudeau-to-remove-senators-from-liberal-caucus-1.2515273?cmp=rss) will no longer be members of the Liberal caucus, but must now sit as independents. It’s very interesting, and undoubtedly a preemptive strike due to the fact that the Senate audit is due to be released in the coming weeks. He can now say “well, they’re independents now, not Liberals.” That is, of course, assuming there will be audit results that will implicate Liberal senators. That’s just the cynic in me talking though. I mean, they’re still Liberal senators after all, just now sitting as independents. I don’t think they will change their stripes. In the mean time the Supreme Court will rule sometime this year on the legalities of real senate reform regarding elected members and term limits. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/249 "2014-01-29T16:43:58Z")
The key piece, I think, is trying to decouple the Senate from the House. It’s far too tempting for a Prime Minister to manage the Senate despite the fact it’s intended to be a check on the House’s budgetary and legislative power. If you have Senators sitting outside of caucus then you can expect to see the emergence of power brokers not necessarily beholden to the current governing party. An elected Senate that caucuses with an elected House is redundant. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/250 "2014-01-29T17:05:56Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > An elected Senate that caucuses with an elected House is redundant. After a couple terms of governing though the appointed senate is also redundant since it’s stacked with cronies. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/251 "2014-01-29T17:26:53Z")
True, but cronies that aren’t part of the House power structure in an official capacity. I’m sure it happened as often in the past as it seems to now, but I can’t remember a House/Senate as closely coupled as we seem to have now. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/252 "2014-01-29T19:12:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > There is no such thing as a refining royalty. So, no, it doesn’t reduce royalties. Are you saying royalty is not refined? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Sorry. > [@Leaffan](#): > > After a couple terms of governing though the appointed senate is also redundant since it’s stacked with cronies. One of the problems with senate reform is that even if a party wants to reform it, they kind of have to stack the house with their cronies while they’re in power to counteract the crony-stacking that went on before them and will go on after them. I’m not sure what would make the Senate better, but it seems to have some serious flaws as it is now. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/253 "2014-01-29T19:44:39Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’m not sure what would make the Senate better, . . . Turning it into a go-kart track. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/254 "2014-01-30T14:32:19Z")
I shall remind everyone that it was just in Oct where the Libs voted down (and criticized) the NDP for their motion to expel Grit and Tory senators.[ > [@](#): > > Just three months ago, Justin Trudeau and the Liberals dismissed as “ridiculous” an NDP motion calling on the Grits and Conservatives to expel unelected senators from their respective caucuses. ]([http://www2.macleans.ca/2014/01/30/the-inside-story-behind-justin-trudeaus-senate-play/](http://www2.macleans.ca/2014/01/30/the-inside-story-behind-justin-trudeaus-senate-play/))[Sound byte of Trudeau](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOmyG6GDcvE&#t=4m44s) ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/255 "2014-01-30T17:00:59Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > Turning it into a go-kart track. Funny; I was thinking paint ball arena. Splat a Senator, win a prize! Of course, colours would be limited to blue, red, orange and green… ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/256 "2014-01-30T20:02:20Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I shall remind everyone that it was just in Oct where the Libs voted down (and criticized) the NDP for their motion to expel Grit and Tory senators.[[URL=“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOmyG6GDcvE&#t=4m44s”]Sound byte of Trudeau](http://www2.macleans.ca/2014/01/30/the-inside-story-behind-justin-trudeaus-senate-play/) There was a whole lot of spinning in that interview. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/257 "2014-01-30T20:12:00Z")
He really doesn’t have _it_. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/258 "2014-01-30T23:47:29Z")
Interesting news item: [Calgary Snow Removal Efforts Haul Massive Loads, Take Toll On Staff](http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/01/28/calgary-snow-removal_n_4682810.html?utm_hp_ref=canada-alberta) From the item: > [@](#): > > The massive snow dumps that covered Calgary in the latter part of 2013 were so huge that as of this week crews had removed enough powder to build a life-size replica of the Great Pyramid in Giza. That’s a lot of snow! ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/259 "2014-01-30T23:52:28Z")
> [@](#): > > The massive snow dumps that covered Calgary in the latter part of 2013 were so huge that as of this week crews had removed enough powder to build a life-size replica of the Great Pyramid in Giza. Though how they’d build a pyramid of snow in Giza I’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/260 "2014-01-31T00:12:43Z")
That they haven’t actually built the replica stands out to me as an enormously missed opportunity. What the hell are we paying these property taxes **for** , if not for crazy boondoogles such as this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612.md?page=14)