# The Canadope Café, 2014 Edition: In 3-D! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 1, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612 "2014-01-01T05:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/161 "2014-01-21T18:07:22Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > \ > > Idle No More, perhaps, Neil? 😉 But, they were idling using biodiesel! That makes it okay then! I think mixing First Nation rights and environmentalism together is pretty dumb; it strikes me as the kind of thing that would play well for people who aren’t very well-educated on either issue. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/162 "2014-01-21T20:06:22Z")
For the record, here’s what Neil himself has said about the Calgary Herald/Sun News articles about him running the buses’ engines - partly spoilered for length. > [@](#): > > My Generation > 21/01/14 > From The Passenger > > The Calgary Herald editorial board member who drew the derision of other attendees at our press conference in Calgary on Sunday took muck raking to a new low. After asking her sophomoric questions about planes and carbon footprints she took to sneaking around our buses. At that time she concluded that our engines were all running and texted that message to Sun Media News. > > Sun Media News dispatched a cameraman to the scene of the crime. He too began sneaking around our buses – our home while we are on the road. I know, I was there, I talked to the fellow. When I explained that it was our generators and not our engines he understood completely. The Sun Media News Live Event truck uses that same system of generation. Ours differ notably in that they are all powered with bio-diesel. A fact I pointed out to the Sun Media News cameraman.[spoiler] > > Those of you who have accused us of hypocrisy for flying in planes and those of you are interested in facts need to know this. Because in spite of understanding completely that it was our generators and not our engines running, Sun Media News reported that it was our engines. Why would we possibly run our engines? We care about our vehicles way too much to do something that stupid. > > Here’s my question: Wouldn’t it be hypocritical to report a story that you know is incorrect? > > Some of the media outlets in Calgary have been drinking too much of the old bitumen kool aid. Demand more from these Big Oil shills. You deserve better Calgary. > > Onward > The Passenger[/spoiler] Now, I don’t know enough about the design of his buses to know whether it is possible to plug in and run off someone’s electrical supply. I also haven’t had a lot of time to be following this story - CD launch, website launch and opening night for the show I’m understudying in have rather occupied my mind these last few weeks. It’s all happy news for me, but my goodness - what a lot of effort all this stuff seems to take! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/163 "2014-01-22T02:04:31Z")
I think the focus on his idling buses (or running generators) is taking the focus off the real issue - that Neil Young is over-simplifying a very complex issue that affects virtually all Canadians directly or indirectly. Let’s also not forget that Neil Young has lived outside of San Francisco for about the last 40 years - I’m not sure why he feels the need to visit Canada and pretend that he still has a say in how Canadians do things. Isn’t there anything going on in the US that he could protest? We sure saw a lot of oil derricks off the California coast last September! ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/164 "2014-01-22T10:32:24Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > … I’m not sure why he feels the need to visit Canada and pretend that he still has a say in how Canadians do things. Isn’t there anything going on in the US that he could protest? We sure saw a lot of oil derricks off the California coast last September! Legend has it–and I can neither confirm nor deny–that he spent some time as a student at the high school I attended some years after Young would have been a student there. (I’m unable to go through the school’s yearbooks.) His father was a sportswriter for Toronto media–I seem to recall Scott Young writing for the _Toronto Telegram_; and later, the _Toronto Sun_, though that’s all going on memory. Regardless, Neil Young does have many Canadian connections: he lived in Toronto, Omemee (Ontario), and Winnipeg; and he is obviously a Canadian citizen. That, it seems to me, gives him a say. However, he may now have been out of the country too long to offer an informed opinion of current affairs in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/165 "2014-01-22T17:57:08Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > \ However, he may now have been out of the country too long to offer an informed opinion of current affairs in Canada. I would agree to that. I guess you could argue that global warming is a global problem (hence the name) and it’s of concern to citizens of the whole world, but again, he’d be better off focusing on the real issues here rather than the red herring of treaty rights. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/166 "2014-01-22T18:18:28Z")
While I most times will disagree with a lot of what political/environmental/what-have-you activists purport, I am glad these people have voices. While the collective voice of Neil Young et al. isn’t likely the one of reason, it definitely echoes of conscience. Nothing wrong with that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/167 "2014-01-22T18:57:17Z")
> [@Dr\_Doom](#): > > While I most times will disagree with a lot of what political/environmental/what-have-you activists purport, I am glad these people have voices. > > While the collective voice of Neil Young et al. isn’t likely the one of reason, it definitely echoes of conscience. Nothing wrong with that. 🙂 Bah. It’s an ill-informed, elitist point of view and is contemptuous of the over 100,000 Albertans directly employed in the energy sector. People need jobs and people work hard to put food on the table for their families. How dare he wander into to town and wag his finger at people wanting to make a living. The very same people who buy his albums and concert tickets. I’m all for free speech, and I agree he has the right to his opinion. I happen to disagree with him. It remands me of John Lennon’s bullshit about “give peace a chance” and “all you need is love” and inviting the press into his peacenik bed-ins with Yoko. Yeah, if you have £500,000,000 in the bank perhaps all you do need is love. The rest of us need jobs and shit. Our entire planet requires petroleum in order to function. Everything from gasoline to kerosene to plastics to food production, and on and on. If Alberta didn’t supply it, it would come from Saudi Arabia, or Venezuela, or Iran, or Iraq, or Kuwait, etc. It’s basically a big oil spill that we’re cleaning up and reclaiming the land. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/168 "2014-01-23T01:56:30Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Bah. It’s an ill-informed, elitist point of view and is contemptuous of the over 100,000 Albertans directly employed in the energy sector. \ I think 100,000+ is drastically underestimating how many Albertans are employed in the energy sector, or are directly affected by ups and downs in the energy sector. I know in my family and circle of acquaintances, virtually all of us are either employed by an oil & gas company or in an industry that exists because of the oil & gas industry. You take the oil sands away, and you negatively affect 4 million Albertans - it seems to me that the people who want to criticize the industry don’t seem to get this. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/169 "2014-01-23T02:28:18Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I think 100,000+ is drastically underestimating how many Albertans are employed in the energy sector, or are directly affected by ups and downs in the energy sector. I know in my family and circle of acquaintances, virtually all of us are either employed by an oil & gas company or in an industry that exists because of the oil & gas industry. You take the oil sands away, and you negatively affect 4 million Albertans - it seems to me that the people who want to criticize the industry don’t seem to get this. Well, I got the number from [here](http://www.energy.alberta.ca/oilsands/791.asp); it’s near the bottom. > [@](#): > > In 2011, approximately 116,000 people were employed in Alberta’s upstream energy sector, which includes oil sands, conventional oil, gas and mining. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/170 "2014-01-23T02:43:10Z")
[Science team identifies tipping point in climate change: 2047](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/science-team-pinpoints-time-when-climate-will-shift-to-unnatural-state/article14774332/) (Written by my friend Ivan.) [Canada’s carbon emissions projected to soar by 2030 - Tar sands expected to help drive 38% increase in emissions, Harper government admits in submission to the UN](http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jan/14/canada-carbon-emissions-2030-tar-sands) I’m coming up on 52 years old, and I don’t ever remember anybody credible saying that we can continue to pollute indefinitely without serious consequences. I have a tremendous respect for hard-working people, but - the world needs to stop burning fossil fuels and it needs to stop manufacturing plastic that gets thrown away after one use. In the 1970s, there were a lot of hard working tobacco farmers who were afraid their way of life had no future. I’m sorry for them, but the country is better off now that fewer people are smoking. I just can’t advocate increasing our carbon emissions when the future is in green technologies. An unsustainable environmental practice **is** an unsustainable economic practice. By the way, I’ve heard this “we’re cleaning up nature’s oil spill” before. In[this picture](http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/tar-sands-before-after.jpg), the image on the left is the ‘before’, the image on the right is the 'after. That’s a very poor clean up. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/171 "2014-01-23T02:55:43Z")
Do you get from city to city in an air balloon or what? We’re working around the clock on alternate technologies, but we don’t have the complete picture yet. In the mean time, what do you propose? Serious question. We have no choice. We really have no choice. Here’s a [picture](http://www.capp.ca/environmentCommunity/land/Pages/RestoringLand.aspx) of a remediated oil sands (not TAR sands!) well. Looks pretty good to me. Where’s your link from? (ETA: [Treehugger.com](http://Treehugger.com). Seriously?) > [@](#): > > When a well is no longer productive, it is abandoned and the land is returned to a sustainable landscape (reclaimed). It takes about five years to fully reclaim the land – from capping the well and removing equipment to cleaning up any chemicals, replacing soil and replanting native vegetation. A government reclamation certificate is issued when the work meets landowner approval and regulated requirements. I don’t mean to sound hostile; I hope we’re all friends here, but we have absolutely no choice but to use fossil fuels for the time being. Canada may as well participate or else we’re just burning oil from another source. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/172 "2014-01-23T03:04:35Z")
And in the mean time Canada’s [CO2 emissions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions) account for less than 2% of the global total: noise. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/173 "2014-01-23T05:29:36Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > [Science team identifies tipping point in climate change: 2047](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/science/science-team-pinpoints-time-when-climate-will-shift-to-unnatural-state/article14774332/) (Written by my friend Ivan.) > [Canada’s carbon emissions projected to soar by 2030 - Tar sands expected to help drive 38% increase in emissions, Harper government admits in submission to the UN](http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jan/14/canada-carbon-emissions-2030-tar-sands) > I’m coming up on 52 years old, and I don’t ever remember anybody credible saying that we can continue to pollute indefinitely without serious consequences. > > I have a tremendous respect for hard-working people, but - the world needs to stop burning fossil fuels and it needs to stop manufacturing plastic that gets thrown away after one use. In the 1970s, there were a lot of hard working tobacco farmers who were afraid their way of life had no future. I’m sorry for them, but the country is better off now that fewer people are smoking. > > I just can’t advocate increasing our carbon emissions when the future is in green technologies. An unsustainable environmental practice **is** an unsustainable economic practice. > By the way, I’ve heard this “we’re cleaning up nature’s oil spill” before. In[this picture](http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/tar-sands-before-after.jpg), the image on the left is the ‘before’, the image on the right is the 'after. That’s a very poor clean up. I don’t disagree with any of this (except tobacco farmers and oil sands aren’t a very apt analogy); I hope no one thinks that it’s possible to just instantly stop processing oil out of the oil sands and tell the economies of Alberta and the rest of Canada that you’ll have to get used to it. Come to think of it, I don’t think NAFTA would allow us to just stop processing oil out of the oil sands; we are not allowed to unilaterally stop exports to the US, and they are our best customer for oil. I also think developing alternative sources of energy (with a heavy emphasis on nuclear) is not only a great idea, but something we’re going to have to do. It is my opinion that we’ve already passed peak oil, and it’s just downhill from here (not to mention the whole fossil fuels emissions thing). I would like to see oil and gas companies getting into the alternative fuel industries, but they would seem to be 100% invested in business as usual and they don’t even want to consider that their oil money is going to run out someday. I would also like to see all levels of government forcing polluting industries to do better, but Big Oil is also Big Money, and money makes the laws. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/174 "2014-01-23T06:49:48Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I don’t disagree with any of this (except tobacco farmers and oil sands aren’t a very apt analogy)… I wondered about this myself. Back in the 1980s, a co-worker’s brother was a tobacco farmer in southwestern Ontario. According to my co-worker, his brother was initially worried about the decline in tobacco consumption, but soon realized that he had acres of land and lots of topsoil, and that other crops could grow just as well as tobacco. I’m not entirely sure if the oilsands can be switched over as easily. > [@](#): > > I also think developing alternative sources of energy (with a heavy emphasis on nuclear) is not only a great idea, but something we’re going to have to do. I agree. I remember in about 2001, when Ontario put _one_ windmill near the Pickering nuclear plant, and crowed about it; you can imagine my surprise when I visited Alberta shortly after and found wind farms made up of _dozens_ of similar windmills. Later, when I moved to Alberta permanently, I would find other such wind farms on my explorations. I have heard (but cannot confirm) that the power for Calgary’s LRT is entirely supplied by electricity generated from wind power. I was similarly surprised to find that Alberta has no nuclear generating stations. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/175 "2014-01-23T07:20:35Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > I have a tremendous respect for hard-working people, but - the world needs to stop burning fossil fuels and it needs to stop manufacturing plastic that gets thrown away after one use. And you have every right to not utilize fossil fuels going about your life. Let us know how that works out for you. In the mean time, I’d prefer not to support the Saudis, preferring instead to support local business and people. You know, your fellow Canadians? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/176 "2014-01-23T14:10:50Z")
I wonder how committed China is, to all this? China makes, or has the capacity to make, _everything_. No wonder they are going batshit crazy to buy our oil, they are doing the world’s manufacturing. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/177 "2014-01-23T14:24:02Z")
I know people here are pissed about the pollution. Politicians seem to be concerned about it, but if it translates into action remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/178 "2014-01-23T17:15:18Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I was similarly surprised to find that Alberta has no nuclear generating stations. Not yet. [http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Canada-Considering-Nuclear-Reactors-in-Alberta-Tar-Sands-Fields.html](http://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Nuclear-Power/Canada-Considering-Nuclear-Reactors-in-Alberta-Tar-Sands-Fields.html) The idea has been bandied about for a while now and the small reactors that the article references would definitely be the ticket assuming gas prices rise sufficiently to offset the cost. I hope that doesn’t happen personally because paying $70/mo. for gas vice three times that for electricity to heat my house, relatively cheap gas makes me happy. If/when we move to an acreage, I’m looking at running a gas line to the house and generating my own with a mix of solar and NG fired generator, especially with ATCO charging $12k/ pwer pole. I’m not sure that the Treaty issues have even remotely been addressed. The First Nations got royally screwed over by successive British and Canadian administrations. Candice Savage’s A Geography of Blood makes a compelling case, and even a cursory glance over Canadian History shows this to be true. It’s a complex issue, that people seem to want to reduce to convenient sound bites and sniping at the other guy’s points rather than proposing any real solutions. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/179 "2014-01-23T18:43:14Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > \ > It’s a complex issue, that people seem to want to reduce to convenient sound bites and sniping at the other guy’s points rather than proposing any real solutions. As complicated as this discussion here is getting, we have barely scratched the surface of all the issues involved here - “convenient sound bites” really do these issues a disservice. I suspect the rest of Canada thinks Albertans are rolling in oil money and never thinking about the cost of that money in ecological terms and what’s going to happen once the oil’s gone, but we do. ETA: Speaking of Albertans rolling in oil money, the majority of the companies involved in oil sand production are foreign, with the profits leaving Canada. I think we have PM Trudeau to thank for that. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612/180 "2014-01-23T20:23:34Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > ETA: Speaking of Albertans rolling in oil money, the majority of the companies involved in oil sand production are foreign, with the profits leaving Canada. I think we have PM Trudeau to thank for that. Thank Mulroney, not Trudeau. Mulroney sold Petro Canada back to the fascists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadope-cafe-2014-edition-in-3-d/677612.md?page=10)