# The CanaDoper Café (2012 edition of The great, ongoing Canadian current events and politics thread.) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 1, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014 "2012-01-01T03:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 108
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2142 "2012-11-17T23:30:46Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Thanks **Spoons** and **Muffin**. Do we need a lawyer? What if we negotiate this ourselves? > > We’re both still in the same household and acknowledge our separation. I’m completely willing to split everything 50/50 and move on, and it sounds like she is too. Child support payments are pretty much mandated and non-negotiable, no? That is do-able, but for the deal to stand a chance at holding up, both of you should get separate lawyers who can look at the facts, advise you of how the law would treat the matter, and advise you of whether the deal you wish to make is both reasonable and supported by the law. Remember that if one of you wants out of the deal at a later date, that person might argue “I didn’t really understand what my rights were” if that person did not have independent legal advice. One of the lawyers will write up the deal using standard terms that are well understood. The other lawyer will review it. Each of you will review it with your own lawyer. Everyone will sign it, saying that you were not being pushed into the deal, you knew all the facts, you knew what the law would give you, and notwithstanding this, you want to be bound by the deal. Once this domestic contract / separation agreement is signed, the property and funds transfers take place forthwith, and a paper based divorce would follow one year after separaton. Before you meet your lawyers, both of you should each \*fully and very carefully complete \*[your own Form 13.1 Financial Statement](http://www.ontariocourtforms.on.ca/english/family). Note that this form requres a pension valuation, so you best get moving on that now. By doing this homework, you will save a lot of money. Once the financial statements are finalized and compared, the formula for property equalization will indicate who should pay how much to the other to make things fair, on the assumption that you keep what is yours, she keeps what is hers, and the two of you continue to share what is yours together. This number (the equalization of net family property) will then be adjusted if one of you buys out the other’s interest in a particular piece of property. There are times to cut corners, and there are times not to cut corners. Don’t cut corners on the negotiation and drafting a separation agreement, and don’t cut corners on treating each other with respect, compassion, and a willingness to honestly listen to each other’s concerns and to compromise rather than take advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2143 "2012-11-18T00:09:54Z")
**Muffin** and **Spoons** (and anyone else who might have any insight), there’s something I’m curious about. We see people starting to talk about divorce, and so often we see that they start with good intentions about staying amicable and dealing respectfully with each other, but somehow it goes sideways and people end up in bitter divorce battles. Do you know how people get from amicable split to bitter divorce? What happens along the way that changes things? ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2144 "2012-11-18T00:14:41Z")
Geez. Stay tuned for a running commentary, although I hope it doesn’t reach that level of hatred. So far we’re eating and speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2145 "2012-11-18T00:16:13Z")
When my wife and I were going through a tough time, we went to see a company that helped us negotiate. I’m not sure it is for everyone, but they sat us down and we talked it out. Turns out we talked ourselves out of it and gave it another chance. No charge. From what I remember it was a flat fee based upon some criteria (that I also can’t remember). [http://www.calgary.fairwaydivorce.com/](http://www.calgary.fairwaydivorce.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2146 "2012-11-18T01:36:09Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Geez. Stay tuned for a running commentary, although I hope it doesn’t reach that level of hatred. So far we’re eating and speaking. Remember that everything you say here can be used against you. If you do not comment on the separation, you cannot get yourself in trouble from what you say. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2147 "2012-11-18T01:47:21Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > **Muffin** and **Spoons** (and anyone else who might have any insight), there’s something I’m curious about. We see people starting to talk about divorce, and so often we see that they start with good intentions about staying amicable and dealing respectfully with each other, but somehow it goes sideways and people end up in bitter divorce battles. Do you know how people get from amicable split to bitter divorce? What happens along the way that changes things? Very few end up chewing on each other’s shins. Most never have a bitter battle. Most remain courteous and fair. Of the few who end up in a bitter court fight, usually one or the other or both suffers from financial problems, addictions and/or mental instability, which is made worse from the stress of separation. If someone suffering from one or more of these problems says “I just want what is fair,” the odds are that what is really being said is “I just want what I think is fair” even if that person actually believes what he or she is saying. As things heat up, teh crazy grows on itself until the parties are locked in terminal litigation. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2148 "2012-11-18T03:38:44Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Very few end up chewing on each other’s shins. Most never have a bitter battle. Most remain courteous and fair. That’s comforting. Thanks. So far we’ve both been very nice. I hope that continues. I’m not good at conflicts. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2149 "2012-11-19T16:57:14Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > Yes in Ontario child support is now based on a formula and not really negotiable. This is [not true](http://www.cleo.on.ca/en/publications/childsupport/how-child-support-determined). > [@](#): > > The amount of child support is based on the Child Support Guidelines unless the parents agree to something different. _Everything_ is negotiable, in the separation process. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2150 "2012-11-19T18:33:35Z")
True, child suport in Ontario is negotiable, but once you get down into the nitty gritty, Moonlitherial is correct. In order for the judge to grant a divorce, adequate provision for child support must be proven, which the courts now interpret as being at least the guidelines amount. If someone asks for the guideline amount, the court will order the guidelines amount, unless the payor is suffering undue financial hardship and also flunks the comparative standards of living test (think of it as a Hail Mary play). The court rarely makes an order for payment in excess of the guidelines amount, and payors rarely voluntarily pay more than the guidelines amount (buying gifts for the child or giving allowances to the child are not child support). Once all this is considered, child support in Ontario is not really negotiable despite it being negotiable. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2151 "2012-11-19T19:04:39Z")
I just want to say that I wish all the very best for you, your wife, and your family, **Leaffan**. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2152 "2012-11-19T19:17:42Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > I just want to say that I wish all the very best for you, your wife, and your family, **Leaffan**. Thanks for the kind words. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2153 "2012-11-19T22:57:24Z")
I’ve been where you are, Leaffan, and you can take my advice FWIW 1. If you are both willing, seek a marriage councillor before you jump into a divorce. If this is something you both can work out, maybe a third side can help, and even if it doesn’t at least you can say you gave it your best shot. 2. If this is marriage is truly not salvageable and you both are willing to be grown-ups, and it sounds like you are, I know Alberta has a Collaborative Law process, as does [Ontario](http://www.oclf.ca/). This didn’t work in my case as we had a dispute over pensions. 3. I had a lawyer draft the separation agreement and chose to prepare and serve papers myself. This involved a fair bit of work but was considerably less expensive as both parties were agreeable. Even so, we both had lawyers review the final draft. We also had all of our financials and had split all property evenly. Some good reading [here](http://www.divorce.com/divorce-101), do your homework. 4. Have a support network, and find something to relieve stress. I hit the gym and lost 40 lbs. I’ve since remarried and gained it all back…:0( 5. Don’t listen to all the horror stories; every one’s situation is unique. Try and maintain a good sense of humour. 6. Try #1 first! 7. Bon Chance! ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2154 "2012-11-20T02:11:16Z")
Thanks. Number one ain’t gonna happen at this point: been there, done that. I think I’ll provide updates over [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=670692), rather than be a killjoy on all good things Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2155 "2012-11-20T04:28:48Z")
[Quebec to Walmart - Make your name more French.](http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/walmart-quebec-court-over-bilingual-signs-184246273.html) Walmart to Quebec - who are you again? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2156 "2012-11-20T06:04:27Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > [Quebec to Walmart - Make your name more French.](http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/walmart-quebec-court-over-bilingual-signs-184246273.html) > > Walmart to Quebec - who are you again? 😃 What’s next for OQLF? “L’Annee Bonne” tires? “Le Mangeur de Boeuf” gin? “La Pomme” computers? The mind boggles… ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2157 "2012-11-20T16:38:42Z")
_checks wristwatch_ Aren’t we due for another round of Quebec separation threats? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2158 "2012-11-20T17:26:19Z")
Yup. They do seem to be gearing up for that. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2159 "2012-11-20T18:17:07Z")
When Wal-Mart is translated into French in Mauritius, it translates to Wal-Mart. Quelle surprise! If they have to make it more French than Danish, they should change try for a bit of on-going PR by naming it Walmart Québec and flying some Fleurdelisé. And stop fighting the move to unionize while they’re at it. (Where’s [Madeleine Parent](http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/1147106--madeleine-parent-1918-2012-death-of-an-icon)when you need her – she passed away earlier this year.) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2160 "2012-11-22T06:23:44Z")
[Ontario Liberal MP raises spectre of National Energy Policy again](http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/21/david-mcguintys-remarks-bigoted-and-dumb) (and loses his post for his ill-advised remarks). ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/2161 "2012-11-22T14:58:15Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > [Ontario Liberal MP raises spectre of National Energy Policy again](http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/21/david-mcguintys-remarks-bigoted-and-dumb) (and loses his post for his ill-advised remarks). What in the world is the matter with these people, who not only have such animus toward their own country, but the complete lack of political common sense to NOT say what they really feel _out loud_? I chewed out my workers, only a couple times, years ago, for having an “us against them” attitude. Yes, “they” are over there, and “we” are over here, but for fuck sakes, we’re all on the same team. What’s good for Alberta is good for Canada, as a nation. Cripes, I even hope against hope, no matter how idiotic the stories that come out of La Belle Province get, that our country remains configured as it is. I don’t wish to kowtow to any single province at any cost, but I also don’t want anyone leaving, either. We’re all the same family, and these political jackasses seem all too willing to piss on their neighbour’s shared driveway, even though it’s plain to see the piss running back into their own yard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014.md?page=107) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014.md?page=109)