# The CanaDoper Café (2012 edition of The great, ongoing Canadian current events and politics thread.) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 1, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014 "2012-01-01T03:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/201 "2012-01-13T20:21:06Z")
Fascinating discussion. The U.S. Constitution requires that the various states of the Union give “full faith and credit” to the laws and court decisions of other states, a concept that has been seriously eroded by the controversy over gay marriage. There was a consensus in this country for so long as to what marriage was and who could enter into it, it wasn’t much of an issue. Then conservatives became panicky that a single state permitting gay marriage would mean that all other states would have to acknowledge it, hence the (appallingly misnamed) Defense of Marriage Act passed by Congress, and its state equivalents. I suspect and hope that DOMA in its various incarnations will someday fall before the Full Faith and Credit clause. > **[Defense of Marriage Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act)** > > The Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) was a United States federal law passed by the 104th United States Congress and signed into law by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996. It banned federal recognition of same-sex marriage by limiting the definition of marriage to the union of one man and one woman, and it further allowed states to refuse to recognize same-sex marriages granted under the laws of other states. > Congressman Bob Barr and Senator Don Nickles, both members of the Republican ... > **[Full Faith and Credit Clause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_faith_and_credit)** > > Article IV, Section 1 of the United States Constitution, the Full Faith and Credit Clause, addresses the duty that states within the United States have to respect the "public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state". According to the Supreme Court, there is a difference between the credit owed to laws (i.e. legislative measures and common law) as compared to the credit owed to judgments. Judges and lawyers agree on the meaning of the clause with respect to the recognition... > [@Spoons](#): > > I was trying to think of an American state, and Massachusetts was the first state that came to mind. No idea why. I might as well have said, “Missouri,” or “Colorado.” So, you can substitute those, if you like. Yes, there is same-sex marriage in Massachusetts: > **[Goodridge v. Department of Public Health](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodridge_v._Dept._of_Public_Health)** > > Goodridge v. Dept. of Public Health, 798 N.E.2d 941 (Mass. 2003), is a landmark Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court case in which the Court held that the Massachusetts Constitution requires the state to legally recognize same-sex marriage. The November 18, 2003, decision was the first by a U.S. state's highest court to find that same-sex couples had the right to marry. Despite numerous attempts to delay the ruling, and to reverse it, the first marriage licenses were issued to same-sex couples... As there is, at least as of today, in five other states, Washington D.C., and within the jurisdiction of two Indian tribes: > **[Same-sex marriage in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_marriage_in_the_United_States)** > > This is an accepted version of this page > > > > Recognized > The legal recognition of same-sex marriage in the United States expanded from one state in 2004 (Massachusetts) to all fifty states in 2015 through various court rulings, state legislation, and direct popular vote. States have separate marriage laws, which must adhere to rulings by the Supreme Court of the United States that recognize marriage as a fundamental right guaranteed by both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause... ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/202 "2012-01-13T20:26:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Pretty swift response: > > [http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/13/harper-government-working-to-clarify-same-sex-marriage-law-so-all-marriages-are-correctly-recognized-in-canada/](http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/13/harper-government-working-to-clarify-same-sex-marriage-law-so-all-marriages-are-correctly-recognized-in-canada/) > > Looks like they are going to override the common law conflict-of-laws position through a legislative amendment. OK, that’s a good step - it’s part of what I wanted to hear from the government and some criticism may have been launched preemptively while I waited (I’m bored and impatient…if I’m awake and doing stuff, why aren’t they ;)) But there is still a fundamental flaw in the system - the inability to divorce, ever. They will _have_ to reexamine the Divorce Act, or let the courts bang things out over time, because the residency requirement is a major problem. It’s easy to say “well, let them move to Canada for a year and then they can divorce the same as anyone else.” Ever tried to do that? Immigration laws and policies pretty much means that none of these couples could ever hope to move to Canada - for a year or longer. It’s a hurdle that cannot be cleared. One of the rights of marriage is the right to end it (at least, that’s how I see it!) and now this basically means that if you’re gay and get married in Canada but live abroad, you are married for life because no one will help you if you want a divorce. That’s a little messed up, IMHO. What a quagmire. **HJ** - Québec doesn’t have common law marriage, but recognizes some laws for _conjoints de fait_ couples and has civil unions for straight and same-sex couples with laws very similar to civil marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/203 "2012-01-13T20:40:17Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Fascinating discussion. > > The U.S. Constitution requires that the various states of the Union give “full faith and credit” to the laws and court decisions of other states, a concept that has been seriously eroded by the controversy over gay marriage. We don’t have an express “full faith and credit clause” in our Constitution, although the SCC has said it is implicit at least for judgments of Canadian courts, but the grant of substantive jurisdiction over marriage and divorce is a different way of dealing with that issue: by making it federal, we have uniform substantive marriage and divorce law across the country. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/204 "2012-01-13T21:09:42Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > OK, that’s a good step - it’s part of what I wanted to hear from the government and some criticism may have been launched preemptively while I waited (I’m bored and impatient…if I’m awake and doing stuff, why aren’t they ;)) > > But there is still a fundamental flaw in the system - the inability to divorce, ever. They will _have_ to reexamine the Divorce Act, or let the courts bang things out over time, because the residency requirement is a major problem. > > It’s easy to say “well, let them move to Canada for a year and then they can divorce the same as anyone else.” > > Ever tried to do that? Immigration laws and policies pretty much means that none of these couples could ever hope to move to Canada - for a year or longer. It’s a hurdle that cannot be cleared. > > One of the rights of marriage is the right to end it (at least, that’s how I see it!) and now this basically means that if you’re gay and get married in Canada but live abroad, you are married for life because no one will help you if you want a divorce. That’s a little messed up, IMHO. > > What a quagmire. > **HJ** - Québec doesn’t have common law marriage, but recognizes some laws for _conjoints de fait_ couples and has civil unions for straight and same-sex couples with laws very similar to civil marriage. I agree. Again, the situation of people being married in Canada wanting to get divorced - where the marriage is not recognized as valid in their home state - is the same for non-gay marriages as for gay marriages, but occurrs so infrequently as to be essentially a non-issue. It’s a neutral law that has a disproportionate impact because practically speaking it will affect only gay ‘forum-shopping’ weddings. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/205 "2012-01-13T21:23:18Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > It varies. For instance, although same-sex marriage is not available in New York, New York law will recognize a same-sex marriage that is valid in the place it was performed. From what I can tell, [same-sex marriages](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_New_York) are now performed in New York. But you’re right that foreign same-sex marriages were recognized by New York for some time before they started celebrating them. It seems to me like a way to pacify your constituents who are against same-sex marriage while still offering a way for gay couples to marry. I’m reminded of the way abortion is illegal in Ireland, but by law women who want to get an abortion abroad must be given the appropriate information and be allowed to travel. That’s politics I guess. > [@](#): > > See this article for, instance: [Canada’s Justice Minister looking to Clarify Law](http://www.canada.com/life/Canada+justice+minister+looking+clarify+same+marriages/5988078/story.html#ixzz1jN2kkqQL) If it turns out Savage’s marriage is invalid, he can always enter in a new domestic partnership in Washington State with his partner. > [@mnemosyne](#): > > **HJ** - Québec doesn’t have common law marriage, but recognizes some laws for _conjoints de fait_ couples and has civil unions for straight and same-sex couples with laws very similar to civil marriage. You’d know more about it than I do, but everything I’ve seen shows that _de facto_ couples emphatically do not have the same rights and duties as married or civil unioned couples. The government even broadcasts ads saying that despite what some people think, after a separation one of the ex-partners could find themself without any means of support. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/206 "2012-01-14T00:14:18Z")
Re New York - you’re right - I’d forgotten that Gov. Cuomo managed to push it through last spring- thanks! On the issue of the rights of cojoints de fait in Quebec - there is a case en route to the SCC which may decide that question. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/207 "2012-01-14T15:29:03Z")
Based on the government’s response, I accept that they were taken by surpise and that I jumped the gun aginst them. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/208 "2012-01-15T00:05:57Z")
I’ve been reading the latest adventures of Orly Taitz in the Elections forum, and wondered if there were any home-grown Canadian wacko fringe beliefs to match the Birthers, “Ohio isn’t a state so income tax is illegal”, “Fringes on the flag means it’s an Admiralty court so you aren’t subject to it’s jurisdiction”, and similar memes that keep popping up in the US? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/209 "2012-01-15T01:05:18Z")
I submit that Canada’s version of people like Orly Taitz is [Ezra Levant.](http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1110642--ezra-levant-tells-chiquita-exec-to-take-his-banana-and-shove-it) I can’t think of any particular meme of his, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/210 "2012-01-15T01:36:36Z")
I often wonder about the marriage issue. We were married in BC, where we have legally resided for over a year so we’re good on that score, but he owns property in Britain and I’m the only child of an American homeowner, so I may one day own a house where our marriage is definitely not recognized. If I die, would **Mr. Mallard** inherit the house because our marriage is valid where we’re domiciled, or would it go to a second cousin because our marriage is not recognized in Colorado? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/211 "2012-01-15T03:06:26Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I often wonder about the marriage issue. We were married in BC, where we have legally resided for over a year so we’re good on that score, but he owns property in Britain and I’m the only child of an American homeowner, so I may one day own a house where our marriage is definitely not recognized. If I die, would **Mr. Mallard** inherit the house because our marriage is valid where we’re domiciled, or would it go to a second cousin because our marriage is not recognized in Colorado? If you want an authoritative answer to that question, you should consult a lawyer licensed to practice in Colorado. I’m moderately surprised at the government’s response to this. I would have expected them to drag their butts, and blame the courts for foreigners’ marriages being invalidated while winking at their base. But instead they’re doing the right thing, and I don’t even really care if it’s just because they know the situation is a huge potential vote-loser. Whether they don’t pursue a social conservative agenda because they think it will cost them an election or because they don’t actually stand for social conservatism, it’s all fine with me just so long as they don’t actually pursue it. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/212 "2012-01-15T03:08:57Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Whether they don’t pursue a social conservative agenda because they think it will cost them an election or because they don’t actually stand for social conservatism, it’s all fine with me just so long as they don’t actually pursue it. I guess it depends on the definition of ‘social conservatism’. I’d hazard a guess that if we use the US definition, they won’t qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/213 "2012-01-15T03:27:01Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I guess it depends on the definition of ‘social conservatism’. I’d hazard a guess that if we use the US definition, they won’t qualify. Well, no. But I watched most of them stand up to vote against SSM in the first place. They earned my mistrust of them. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/214 "2012-01-15T03:57:46Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > If you want an authoritative answer to that question, you should consult a lawyer licensed to practice in Colorado. I’m not planning on needing an answer for a few decades, by which time any number of situations might change. It’s just a thought exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/215 "2012-01-15T04:25:56Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I submit that Canada’s version of people like Orly Taitz is [Ezra Levant.](http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1110642--ezra-levant-tells-chiquita-exec-to-take-his-banana-and-shove-it) I can’t think of any particular meme of his, though. I like Ezra Levant. Canada needs more Ezra Levants. I like a balanced media. Otherwise the Sierra Club and Greenpeace take over. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/216 "2012-01-15T06:41:19Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I often wonder about the marriage issue. We were married in BC, where we have legally resided for over a year so we’re good on that score, but he owns property in Britain and I’m the only child of an American homeowner, so I may one day own a house where our marriage is definitely not recognized. If I die, would **Mr. Mallard** inherit the house because our marriage is valid where we’re domiciled, or would it go to a second cousin because our marriage is not recognized in Colorado? Both of you should do wills rather than rely on the laws of various jurisdictions concerning intestacy. You should consider making separate wills for the property in each different country (to avoid your entire estate getting tangled up due to jurisdictional squabbles), and while you are at it, make all the wills in the International Wills format (the [International Wills Convention](http://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/1973wills/main.htm) is in force in Canada, but although the UK and the USA have both signed it, I don’t think that it is in force in those jurisdictions; it can’t hurt to use that format, and with any luck by the time you pass away, the UK and the USA might have the convention in force in their jurisdictions). Also, you should make powers of attorney in each jurisdiction in which you expect to reside, and if you are a same-sex couple, you’d best make POAs for every non-gay friendly jurisdiction in which you expect to travel (just make generic POAs or have them made for you by an estates lawyer, then cut and paste the different state names on each of them, and have a couple of friends over for dinner and a signing party). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/217 "2012-01-15T16:53:10Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I submit that Canada’s version of people like Orly Taitz is [Ezra Levant.](http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1110642--ezra-levant-tells-chiquita-exec-to-take-his-banana-and-shove-it) I can’t think of any particular meme of his, though. That’s an inexplicable and unfair comparison. Ezra Levant is a dick, but he’s not insane, and he’s taken some positions that were quite correct. Orly Taitz is an absolute loon, tilting at windmills that don’t even exist. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/218 "2012-01-15T19:29:55Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I like Ezra Levant. Canada needs more Ezra Levants. > > I like a balanced media. Otherwise the Sierra Club and Greenpeace take over. Oh, dear God, no, we don’t need more Ezra Levants. We need more level-headed, articulate conservative pundits, not a big-mouthed jerk who seems to be mostly interested in getting his name in the news. He doesn’t speak for conservatives like me in any way. > [@RickJay](#): > > That’s an inexplicable and unfair comparison. Ezra Levant is a dick, but he’s not insane, and he’s taken some positions that were quite correct. Orly Taitz is an absolute loon, tilting at windmills that don’t even exist. I’ll grant you that Ezra is _probably_ sane, except for his probable narcissistic disorder. As far as I can tell about Ezra’s positions, the position he takes is the most oppositional that is likely to get him the most media coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/219 "2012-01-15T19:30:57Z")
In other news, we went to see Platinum Blonde perform last night - it was a great show! How’s that for our Canadian Gen X cred? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/220 "2012-01-15T20:51:49Z")
I’m always amazed when these twenty- or thirty-year-old bands pop up. Somehow I expect them to be dead or retired or something. I guess we’ll see The Spoons, Trooper, and A Flock Of Seagulls next… 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014.md?page=12)