# The CanaDoper Café (2012 edition of The great, ongoing Canadian current events and politics thread.) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 1, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014 "2012-01-01T03:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/521 "2012-02-24T08:35:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Is there anyone on this message board who believes otherwise? Is there anyone on this board, conservative or not, who supports these sorts of bills? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/522 "2012-02-24T13:05:24Z")
A local Regina and Saskatchewan matter: we lost a good newspaper columnist on the weekend: Ron Petrie of the Leader-Post died, age 52, from cancer, leaving a wife and four children. Petrie worked for the LP for 30 years, and was most well-known for his regular humour column about events in Saskatchewan on p. 3, leading to his nick-name, “Third Page Boy.” Although his column was mainly a humour column (who can forget his characterization of Edmonton Eskimo fans as “Smurf-stranglers” prior to the 1997 Western Final), he also strayed occasionally into more serious topics. Two of his columns in particular stand out for me: his column on the death of Sandra Schmirler in 1999, reminiscing about her Gold medal win at Nagano, and his column on the death of his farming father, which came out about the same time as my father-in-law died. Both were gentle discussions of aspects of Saskatchewan, such as his comment about how you could walk down a residential street in Saskatchewan at 4 in the morning on the day of the gold medal game, and see the lights of tv’s glowing as people had got up to see if Sandra and the girls could do it and win gold. Of course, that was exactly what Mrs Piper and I had done that day. His discussion of his father’s life and pride in being a farmer and raising a family rang true for anyone who had a “foot on a farm”. His [self-description](http://www.leaderpost.com/columnists/Ron_Petrie.html) from the L-P: > [@](#): > > Ron Petrie is widely recognized in Saskatchewan literary circles as “that guy in the paper who thinks he’s so funny.” Married with four children, only three of whom are triplets, Ron has been a humour columnist since the late 1900s. And two tributes from his friends and colleagues: [Rob Vanstone: Farewell to our friend Ron Petrie](http://www.leaderpost.com/news/VANSTONE+Farewell+friend+Petrie/6195181/story.html) [Will Chabun: Veteran Leader-Post columnist Ron Petrie dies at 52](http://www.leaderpost.com/news/Veteran+Leader+Post+columnist+Petrie+dies/6180439/story.html) RIP, Third Page Boy. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/523 "2012-02-24T14:54:20Z")
The [National Post](http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/23/stephen-harper-denies-tories-knew-about-illegal-election-robocalls-linked-to-party/) (and possibly other newspapers, I’ve only read the one article today) is suggesting that the person behind these robocalls might be Michael Sona, the moron who tried to walk away with an election box on the University of Guelph campus because he felt the polling station was somehow illegal (read: too many liberals…from what I hear, the guy is nuts). So, one over-zealous Conservative party worker/supporter seems to be in the lead in the battle to blame someone. Also, I had to laugh at this: “In this case, our party has no knowledge of these calls,” he [Stephen Harper] told reporters in Iqaluit. “It’s not part of our campaign” In this case? Are there more cases to look at? (I know, I know, liberal media bias and yadda yadda - whatever he said immediately before and/or the way the question was asked probably led to that phrasing, but it still made me laugh given as how there are other phony call issues being linked to Conservative supporters). And if it were the other way 'round, you can bet the Conservatives as opposition would be in as much of a tizzy over it. It’s naive and partisan to suggest otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/524 "2012-02-24T15:44:29Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > The [National Post](http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/23/stephen-harper-denies-tories-knew-about-illegal-election-robocalls-linked-to-party/) . . . . > > . . . Also, I had to laugh at this: > > “In this case, our party has no knowledge of these calls,” he [Stephen Harper] told reporters in Iqaluit. “It’s not part of our campaign” > > In this case? Are there more cases to look at? (I know, I know, liberal media bias and yadda yadda. . . . The National Pest has a liberal bias? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/525 "2012-02-24T17:37:42Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > \ > Also, I had to laugh at this: > > “In this case, our party has no knowledge of these calls,” he [Stephen Harper] told reporters in Iqaluit. “It’s not part of our campaign” > > In this case? Are there more cases to look at? (I know, I know, liberal media bias and yadda yadda - whatever he said immediately before and/or the way the question was asked probably led to that phrasing, but it still made me laugh given as how there are other phony call issues being linked to Conservative supporters). I imagine he meant something like, “With regard to this story,” but yeah, that came out funny. 🙂 > [@](#): > > And if it were the other way 'round, you can bet the Conservatives as opposition would be in as much of a tizzy over it. It’s naive and partisan to suggest otherwise. Absolutely. “Naive and partisan” is exactly the right way to describe anyone who thinks that this would play out differently if it had been the NDP or Liberals who were accused of doing this. I don’t know about the rest of you, but one thing that stays in my mind is that I don’t want Canada to go the same way as the United States, with people completely polarized and unable to have any kind of discussion with people who vote differently than they do. I’ve met a bunch of you, and I hope to meet even more, and I haven’t met anyone yet who I wouldn’t go out for a beer with. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/526 "2012-02-24T20:50:27Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > The National Pest has a liberal bias? I don’t know, does it? I don’t think it does (I think it goes the other way) but isn’t anything that makes the right look even a little bit bad automatically “liberal bias”? 😛 I saw the same quote in the G&M without the “In this case” part - which surprised me. Meh, I don’t read too much into it; it’s just a slightly unfortunate phrasing, is all. I think Bob Rae was somewhat hyperbolic in his phrasing, but I kind of agree with the idea that, at least in some parts of the Conservative’s voting base, there is a “win-at-all-costs” attitude that might have contributed to these sorts of dumbass decisions on volunteer’s parts. I am sick and tired of reading comments like “we [Harper/Conservatives] won, just shut up and get over it” in newspaper comments, and I can’t help but feel that it stifles discourse and reasonable policies. I’ve said it before - this isn’t like sports fandom. You don’t vote for your team at all costs; if someone you voted for, or connected to someone you voted for, does something wrong, _you call them out on it_ because that is not only your right, but your obligation. These people are - supposedly - speaking for YOU (us!) - don’t let them use your voice to do stupid/illegal/hateful/wrong things. I’ll call out anyone in any party…I just poke the Conservative bear more now because they are easier targets 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/527 "2012-02-25T03:56:37Z")
Allegations are getting worse: [At least 14 election ridings blitzed with live calls from fake Liberals](http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/24/at-least-14-election-ridings-blitzed-with-live-calls-from-fake-liberals/): > [@](#): > > An analysis of reports of mysterious harassing phone calls during the May 2011 election points to the existence of a systematic voter suppression campaign targeting Liberal voters in tightly contested ridings. > > Unlike the pre-recorded “robocalls” now under investigation by Elections Canada, these calls came from live callers, likely working from a call centre. > > A Postmedia News-Ottawa Citizen investigation based on interviews with dozens of campaign workers has identified 14 ridings — mostly closely fought electoral districts in southern Ontario — where electors reported receiving fake live calls. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/528 "2012-02-25T05:32:43Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m going with the Liberals themselves. Seems like the type of greasy thing they’d attempt to pull off. Knowing they were going to lose badly, they were planning ahead to the next election wanting dirt they could use on the opposition. > > Or, we could wait until the investigation is complete and we have some actual evidence before we go off half cocked in blaming people who may have had no idea, let alone condoning such actions. It does seem that anyone with a credit card could have setup an account and done this. Oh give me a huge, massive, giant break. The liberals did it? A massive double-super secret ploy to make themselves lose the election so that at some later date they could maybe blame the other party? I’m sorry, but that argument is idiotic, plain and simple. Let’s go with Occam’s razor here - the simple explanation is that the Conservatives did this. The only question is how far up the chain of command did the rot go. And then you try the “can’t comment until we have all the facts, a committee report and a second opinion” gambit? Perhaps in 5 years we might be able to comment, after all is said and done, eh? And now we have a convenient fall guy, 23 year old Michael Sona, who the Conservatives have thrown under the bus. They’d like us to think he was individually responsible for organizing robo-calls to over a dozen different ridings, in two languages. Bullshit. Complete, utter bullshit, and an affront to democracy in this country. I think that when we find those responsible, a nice 20 year sentence would be about right. For every single one of them, from the bottom to the top. ETA: Given Northern Piper’s link above - can you say “criminal conspiracy?” ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/529 "2012-02-25T14:01:48Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Let’s go with Occam’s razor here - the simple explanation is that the Conservatives did this. The only question is how far up the chain of command did the rot go. The simple explanation is that someone wanted the Conservatives to win. That doesn’t make it the Conservative party. It also doesn’t mean it wasn’t them, either. Or, someone wanted a reason to complain about the results of the election. Especially if they knew they were going to lose badly. From the minds of those who came up with AdScam, it isn’t beyond the pale. > [@](#): > > And then you try the “can’t comment until we have all the facts, a committee report and a second opinion” gambit? Perhaps in 5 years we might be able to comment, after all is said and done, eh? Sure, why not. Works for the NDP and Liberals when it is in their favor. > [@](#): > > And now we have a convenient fall guy, 23 year old Michael Sona, who the Conservatives have thrown under the bus. They’d like us to think he was individually responsible for organizing robo-calls to over a dozen different ridings, in two languages. Bullshit. Occam’s Razor ring a bell? > [@](#): > > Complete, utter bullshit, and an affront to democracy in this country. I think that when we find those responsible, a nice 20 year sentence would be about right. For every single one of them, from the bottom to the top. And those making claims without proof should probably join them. > [@](#): > > ETA: Given Northern Piper’s link above - can you say “criminal conspiracy?” From a previous link a whole 100 people showed up at the wrong location. Think that was enough to change the outcome of the election? Frankly, someone showing up at the wrong location and not taking the effort to find the right one is either too stupid or lazy that we’re better off without them having a say in how the country is run. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/530 "2012-02-25T15:28:09Z")
Excusing this affront to the democratic process of electing a government is disgusting. This goes beyond party lines. Saying that it might have been done because “someone wanted a reason to complain about the results of the election” is akin to moving about the world with a blindfold on. Thinking that a single 23 year old idiot could orchestrate and pay for something like this is naive. Take a look at **Northern Piper** ’s link from the National Post. Now we have not only Robocalls, but a call center set up to pretend to be Liberals and calling to irritate people. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/531 "2012-02-25T16:31:51Z")
I don’t want to rush to judgment - that’s what the Conservatives did in 2006 when they toppled the government before the Gomery inquiry was complete. Then, when there was some question as to when and how details of the income trusts were leaked, they slandered [Ralph Goodale](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Goodale) as hard as they could. I never did see the front page, 20 point type apology I felt he was owed… So I refuse to sink to their level - let this be investigated fully and blame be assigned where it is due. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/532 "2012-02-25T17:07:29Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Take a look at **Northern Piper** ’s link from the National Post. Now we have not only Robocalls, but a call center set up to pretend to be Liberals and calling to irritate people. You’ve asked if I read the link. I have. My question to you would be if you actually have? Without the Liberal coloured glasses, I mean. You think someone on the phone saying they are the ‘Conservatives’ and being coached while doing so is a grand conspiracy rather than some yahoo’s playing games with the process? Even the Liberals don’t think it is the Conservatives, yet you do. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/533 "2012-02-25T18:24:25Z")
It’s far more serious than some yahoo. It appears it was a concerted, orchestrated effort by the Tories to subvert the election in 14 ridings. From the [**Huffington Post**](http://www.canada.com/news/More+than+dozen+ridings+blitzed+harassing+fake+Liberal+phone+calls+2011+election/6206603/story.html#ixzz1nLoKsQIn): > [@](#): > > An analysis of reports of mysterious harassing phone calls during the May 2011 election points to the existence of a systematic voter suppression campaign targeting Liberal voters in tightly contested ridings. > > Unlike the pre-recorded “robocalls” now under investigation by Elections Canada, these calls came from live callers, likely working from a call centre. . . . ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/534 "2012-02-25T18:28:47Z")
I doubt very much that Harper or some of the higher-ups had anything to do with it. It was likely Sona (or someone in a similar role to him, but I’ll just keep using his name for convenience), and given the number of ridings involved, probably semi-coordinated with other people as well. (I think it’s a little weird that the voice actresses didn’t question what they were recording, but who knows what they were being told it was for? It’s true that not everyone is really aware of how elections work, and they might not have thought twice about it…I’d just like to think that I would have!) Thing is, the various Sonas who worked on this _represented the Conservative party_. When we say “it isn’t the Conservatives who did this” where are we drawing the line? At the MPs themselves? Sure, probably wasn’t. At their paid staff? It might have included one or two people. At candidates with no chance in hell of getting elected? One or two of them might have been in on it. At unpaid volunteers for various candidates? Almost certainly included them (Sona, for one). Who is or isn’t “The Conservatives” now? I think they are handling it correctly - investigating and declaring that it’s unacceptable, etc, but I think some of this will stick to them and they are going to have to deal with it. It wasn’t “the Liberals” who were involved in AdScam - it was a relatively small group of people - and yet supporters of the Conservative party have no qualms whatosever about tarring the entire party and their supporters with the AdScam brush. If they are going to do that, then why not tar the entire Conservative party with the Election Fraud brush…something they are already guilty of, by the way, via the in-and-out scheme. It goes both ways, you know? Personally, I don’t really care _who_ did it, so long as anyone and everyone who was in on it is arrested and charged for tampering with the elections. You need to come down hard on shit like this, so that it never happens again. It was only 100 people in Guelph, but those 100 people (or the ones that couldn’t/didn’t vote because of this) were robbed of their political voice, and that’s not acceptable in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/535 "2012-02-25T18:39:29Z")
Well said, **mnemosyne.** As a Conservative supporter, when I hear about something like this, I am extremely disappointed - this is far from my idea of what a political party is supposed to do. If you can’t win honestly (well, using the same tricks as all the other parties), you don’t deserve to win, period. I like to think the the decision-makers in the Conservative party know how this would come across and therefore wouldn’t have sponsored it, but I won’t call it impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/536 "2012-02-25T22:30:02Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > Who is or isn’t “The Conservatives” now? I think they are handling it correctly - investigating and declaring that it’s unacceptable, etc, but I think some of this will stick to them and they are going to have to deal with it. It wasn’t “the Liberals” who were involved in AdScam - it was a relatively small group of people - and yet supporters of the Conservative party have no qualms whatosever about tarring the entire party and their supporters with the AdScam brush. If they are going to do that, then why not tar the entire Conservative party with the Election Fraud brush…something they are already guilty of, by the way, via the in-and-out scheme. While this and Adscam may be two points on the same continuum in terms of having been committed by “the party,” Adscam was perpetrated by at least one cabinet minister, high ranking party officials in Quebec, and possibly the PM. While it wasn’t “the party” per se, it certainly wasn’t unpaid volunteers either. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/537 "2012-02-25T22:51:31Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > While this and Adscam may be two points on the same continuum in terms of having been committed by “the party,” Adscam was perpetrated by at least one cabinet minister, high ranking party officials in Quebec, and possibly the PM. While it wasn’t “the party” per se, it certainly wasn’t unpaid volunteers either. OK, but it’s still ridiculous to use it against some newbie Liberal from out West, to use a made up example. Either we accept that an entire party is responsible for the crimes of a few members, even years later, or we don’t. If people think it’s fair to accuse today’s Liberals of all being corrupt because of Adscam, then I feel it’s equally valid to accuse today’s Conservatives of all being corrupt because of in-and-out and, now, this. I think it’s pointless and unproductive, but _it’s just as valid_, regardless of who and how many people in each party were involved. That’s my point. Though I keep coming back to thinking about how bloody stupid the argument that “I just got caught doing X, but so-and-so did Y 15 years ago, so…there!” is. Who cares? It wasn’t ok then, and it isn’t ok now, so suck it up and take your punishment! The more I think about this, the more it angers me. These were hotly contested ridings, where, it seems, only a few hundred votes separated candidates. I don’t know if these fake phone calls harassing people or the robocalls telling people their polling stations had moved made any difference in the voter turnout, nor any difference in who won or lost, but the very fact that _it could have_, had this been more widespread, is offensive to me. How are we to know that each win in these ridings are valid? Interview each and every voter to see whether these calls changed their minds/prevented them from voting? The very validity of the election results is called into question. I don’t actually think that, in this case, all 18 (or more) ridings had the results affected enough to, say, overturn a majority, but it’s conceivable that one or two seats \*might \*have gone differently, no? Do you trust a government, when you don’t trust the process that put them there? I know that’s more theoretical, but…damn…I don’t like it. This needs to be punished, and punished severely. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/538 "2012-02-26T02:29:22Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > OK, but it’s still ridiculous to use it against some newbie Liberal from out West, to use a made up example. Either we accept that an entire party is responsible for the crimes of a few members, even years later, or we don’t. So do we or don’t we? Do we equate low level flunkies with people at the highest level like the PM? How low does the flunky have to be to not ‘equal’ the party? As someone who voted for the party in the past, if it turns out I’m ‘accused’ of being a pedophile terrorist, does that tar the whole party? > [@](#): > > If people think it’s fair to accuse today’s Liberals of all being corrupt because of Adscam, then I feel it’s equally valid to accuse today’s Conservatives of all being corrupt because of in-and-out and, now, this. You seem to think it is fair. I don’t see you on the high road here. I brought up AdScam as the example of tarring the whole group because of the actions of a few. Now if you think that I think that the Conservatives couldn’t do such a thing, you’d be wrong. Politicians generally fall into two camps: Naive do-gooders and corrupt power seekers. Heaven save us from the former and by kicking out the bastards every couple of years, it keeps the corruption at an acceptably low level caused by the latter (who tend to be the more competent of the two groups at running things). I’d like to think Harper hasn’t reached the evil of a Trudeau or Cretien yet. But you never know. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/539 "2012-02-26T03:57:48Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > If people think it’s fair to accuse today’s Liberals of all being corrupt because of Adscam, then I feel it’s equally valid to accuse today’s Conservatives of all being corrupt because of\*\* in-and-out \*\*and, now, this. > > I think it’s pointless and unproductive, but _it’s just as valid_, regardless of who and how many people in each party were involved. That’s my point. What do you mean by “in and out” ? So if it’s some low level Conservative card carrying flunky responsible for this, I take it you want Harper removed from office ? If yes, safe to assume if we find out it some low level NDP member was responsible for using an government computer to create that Toews twitter account, Turmel should resign ? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/540 "2012-02-26T04:18:47Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > I don’t want to rush to judgment… > > … let this be investigated fully and blame be assigned where it is due. I am with **Le Ministre** on this one. Let’s see what the investigation turns up, and assign blame, and punishment, appropriately from there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014.md?page=28)