# The CanaDoper Café (2012 edition of The great, ongoing Canadian current events and politics thread.) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 1, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014 "2012-01-01T03:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1422 "2012-07-29T02:43:00Z")
No, Uzi, it is not a matter of preferring trucks over pipelines. I don’t know where you came up with that idea. It is a matter of preferring a more responsible pipeline operator over a less responsible pipeline operator, and ensuring that the operations are properly rather than minimally regulated for safety. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1423 "2012-07-29T03:10:08Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > No, Uzi, it is not a matter of preferring trucks over pipelines. I don’t know where you came up with that idea. The other choice is not moving the oil and there are only so many ways of moving oil. There are only so many paths to get that oil to where it needs to go. If you shut down those paths there are only so many alternatives. > [@](#): > > It is a matter of preferring a more responsible pipeline operator over a less responsible pipeline operator, and ensuring that the operations are properly rather than minimally regulated for safety. Uh, if an operator is not responsible, then why don’t they shut them down? I’ve never understood why BP still has a license to operate. If you want a company that is so far to the bad side of the bell curve on safety, that is it. But what is unsafe? What is responsible? A pipeline will eventually have a leak. It is inevitable. In the link about Enbridge, they responded immediately by shutting down the pipeline and have assessed the extent of the spill and have probably started to remediate the issue? From a response pov, that seems responsible. The question remains on what they are doing to prevent a future spill? ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1424 "2012-07-29T21:09:22Z")
Well, you may call it a fantasy world; between [Peak Oil](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil), [5,000 premature deaths](http://www.ec.gc.ca/scitech/default.asp?lang=En&n=4B40916E-1&xsl=privateArticles2,viewfull&po=99968A4E) from car pollution per year in Canada alone, and [continuing loss of farmland](http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CFwQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uoguelph.ca%2F~farmland%2FProtectingFarmland.pdf&ei=S6IVUKejC6X10gGq3ICoCA&usg=AFQjCNFHdRjWcSy-p3sBlvMIGzkX1oDtwA) (PDF link) to urban sprawl, I just call a world weaning itself off oil ‘the future’. This ‘spills are the price of developing oil’ arguments are precisely why the pipeline proponents are accused of not caring about the environment. The bitumen from the Tar Sands is dirty enough already; there’s no need to increase its environmental footprint. Mind you, I’d love to see Enbridge work this kind of stuff into their ads; let’s see what kind of public support they get when they start discussing the level of environmental damage they find acceptable. “Sure, the spill included the spawning grounds of all the salmon in the Nechako River, but it doesn’t matter if the salmon stocks are reduced by 10%. There’s lots more fish in the sea!” Let me put it this way - if your dog takes a whizz on my rug, I don’t care how many times he pees where he’s supposed to, and I don’t care if it represents 10%, 1% or .000001% of his yearly output. It should never have happened. The map you link to is cute - all those out of date pipelines ready to leak all over the prairies. How many earthquakes, landslides or avalanches do you think they’ve had to withstand? Any where near as many as they’ll face going over every range in the Rocky Mountains? And then the diluted bitumen has to get out of Kitimat without ruining the inlet. I wonder how well the fisheries will do when the bottom is covered in toxic goo? The BC Fisheries brought in [$330 million in 2010](http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/omfd/fishstats/capture/index.html); that’s an industry worth protecting. Bottom line - it’s a dumb idea for an industry that’s had its day. Let’s refine it here and use it to support technology that will reduce our dependence on petroleum based fuels - that’s where the smart money is! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1425 "2012-07-29T21:55:02Z")
I would prefer that Canadian oil be refined in Canada, and that we work toward not having to import oil in the East. If we must export oil off the West Coast, I would prefer a pipeline route that is not as environmentally risky as Enbridge’s proposed route, and I would prefer a deep water terminal that minimizes navigation in tight quarters. I certainly do not think that it is wise to push ahead with a damn the torpedos attitude. I think the [BC requirements](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/07/23/pol-bc-pipeline-clark-gateway.html), as set out below, are quite reasonable. [B.C. seeks 'fair share' in new Gateway pipeline deal | CBC News](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/07/23/pol-bc-pipeline-clark-gateway.html) > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]Completing the environmental review process. In the case of Enbridge, that would mean a recommendation by the National Energy Board Joint Review Panel that the project proceed.[/li][li]Deploying world-leading marine oil-spill response, prevention and recovery systems for B.C.'s coastline and ocean to manage and mitigate the risks and costs of heavy oil pipelines and shipments.[/li][li]Using world-leading practices for land oil-spill prevention, response and recovery systems to manage and mitigate the risks and costs of heavy oil pipelines.[/li][li]Addressing legal requirements regarding aboriginal and treaty rights, and ensuring First Nations provided with the opportunities, information and resources necessary to participate in and benefit from a heavy-oil project.[/li][li]Ensuring British Columbia receives a fair share of the fiscal and economic benefits of a proposed heavy oil project that reflects the level, degree and nature of the risk borne by the province, the environment and taxpayers.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1426 "2012-07-31T21:18:58Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > I think a look at the[existing](http://www.theodora.com/pipelines/north_america_oil_gas_and_products_pipelines.html)oil and gas pipelines would be beneficial. One more pipeline is an environmental disaster waiting to happen? > > Fuck that. No, but running one more pipeline through some of the roughest country in the world isn’t going to make cleaning any leak of appreciable size up a simple task. As Uzi pointed out again, pipelines will leak. ANYTHING engineered will usually fail at either the worst possible moment or place of highest stress. Looking at the map shows most product being fed through those pretty lines tend to be in areas that are accessible by road at the very least. Not all, granted, but most. Diluted bitumen is difficult to clean up even under ideal circumstances like the Kalamazoo spill, and how do you shovel and ship contaminated soil in the middle of the Rockies? Helo time for an A Star runs at least $1200/hr and that’s only about 1 tonne/load under good flying circumstances, and flying in the mountains isn’t it… Running a fireroad up might be an option but that won’t be cheap or environmentally kind either. I think BC is perfectly justified in saying they want a larger slice of the pie if the patch wants to play. Process here, ship the finished product via existing ( upgraded) pipelines. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1427 "2012-07-31T23:02:04Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > I think BC is perfectly justified in saying they want a larger slice of the pie if the patch wants to play And what if there isn’t a spill? Will they give the money back for resources that weren’t theirs to begin with? Why should Albertans have to give their resources away to BC? Should Alberta now start asking for a larger share of items that cross its borders going east? ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1428 "2012-07-31T23:50:32Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Should Alberta now start asking for a larger share of items that cross its borders going east? You think it doesn’t? Highway taxes, fuel taxes, landing taxes . . . east, west and uphill both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1429 "2012-08-01T00:09:57Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > No, but running one more pipeline through some of the roughest country in the world isn’t going to make cleaning any leak of appreciable size up a simple task. As Uzi pointed out again, pipelines will leak. ANYTHING engineered will usually fail at either the worst possible moment or place of highest stress. Looking at the map shows most product being fed through those pretty lines tend to be in areas that are accessible by road at the very least. Not all, granted, but most. > Diluted bitumen is difficult to clean up even under ideal circumstances like the Kalamazoo spill, and how do you shovel and ship contaminated soil in the middle of the Rockies? Helo time for an A Star runs at least $1200/hr and that’s only about 1 tonne/load under good flying circumstances, and flying in the mountains isn’t it… Running a fireroad up might be an option but that won’t be cheap or environmentally kind either. I think BC is perfectly justified in saying they want a larger slice of the pie if the patch wants to play. Process here, ship the finished product via existing ( upgraded) pipelines. Look, we need to get the natural resources out of the area and sell them, like every other oil-producing country is capable of doing. Canada is rich with natural resources. Selling them on a world market is good for the economy of Canada; it increases our GDP. Pipelines are an extremely efficient method for moving fluids. Pipeline technology (like everything else) has improved over time. From [here](http://www.northerngateway.ca/assets/pdf/Engineering/NGP-FS-03-006_Pipeline%20Integrity%20and%20Safety.pdf) the pipeline integrity and safety sheet states: > [@](#): > > Our pipeline integrity management program involves: > > - expert field technicians > - a robust corrosion prevention program (including protective coatings and cathodic protection for all of our pipelines) > - the best in-line inspection tools on the market which allow us to detect frequency and location of even minute > changes in the walls of the pipeline > - patrolling the line using aircrafts, land vehicles or foot patrols > - a line pressure monitor alarm system > - pipeline depth monitoring program > - investigative excavations > - slope stability monitoring > - annual soil surveys > - using inline devices known as “pigs” to clean and inspect pipelines from the inside > - using high quality pipeline materials > Through these various means, data is collected to determine which section of the pipeline may need to be repaired. When a > pipeline needs to be repaired, the damaged section of the pipeline is excavated, evaluated and repaired, replacing its > protective coating at the same time. A full pipe replacement is seldom necessary. I’m not sure how many jobs will be created in building the pipeline, but its got to be in the thousands, not to mention a few thousand spin-off jobs. Is there really any reason to not stimulate our economy in the short term with jobs, and in the long term with increased GDP? What am I missing.? The end entirely and completely justifies the means. And anyway, we’re essentially cleaning up a major natural oil spill in Alberta to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1430 "2012-08-01T00:47:48Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > You think it doesn’t? Highway taxes, fuel taxes, landing taxes . . . east, west and uphill both ways. Which is why BC should be charging a port tax or similar rather than trying to skim off the top as a royalty. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1431 "2012-08-01T02:12:22Z")
Just for the record,the primary reason no one’s building refineries near the oil sands is that if you’re gonna drop a couple billion on oil infrastructure near Ft Mac, you want it to be a production facility rather than something that duplicates a capacity you’ve already got in another location. Might be a different story if there were a ton of idle labour in the vicinity rather than acute shortages. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1432 "2012-08-01T13:39:45Z")
I’m going with the first nations people here on the coast. We didn’t need the pipeline before and we don’t need it now. In B.C. we’ve got all kinds of sustainable natural resources that have been of use for millenia. There is just no NEED for us to bend over and risk our heritage so that money loving Alberta can get rich unhindered. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1433 "2012-08-01T15:56:48Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’m going with the first nations people here on the coast. We didn’t need the pipeline before and we don’t need it now. In B.C. we’ve got all kinds of sustainable natural resources that have been of use for millenia. There is just no NEED for us to bend over and risk our heritage so that money loving Alberta can get rich unhindered. That’s a fairly short-sighted, uninformed opinion - do you think that Alberta just takes all the money from the oil and keeps it here? I’ll refer you to something called Transfer Payments. I don’t understand it completely myself, and if I’m wrong I’d appreciate someone explaining it better, but I understand that Alberta does indeed take in lots of money from the oil sands, and we send a large chunk of that money off to Ottawa. And if I’m not mistaken, BC has a lot of oil, too. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1434 "2012-08-01T16:19:02Z")
And for decades Ontario also shipped a lot of tax dollars to Ottawa from manufacturers who were once very profitable here: not so much lately. We’re all in this together, that’s why we’re a federation. When times are good, we share the profits with other provinces; when times are bad we benefit from other provinces. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1435 "2012-08-01T17:28:11Z")
Folks, the provinces do not cut a check to the Federal Government. Federal transfers (say for health) and Federal equalization payments (based on Provincial per capita GDP vs. national average) come from general revenues at the federal level. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1436 "2012-08-01T17:32:35Z")
And Quebec, once again, [gets to pick a government](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/charest-calls-quebec-election-marois-starts-campaign-with-attacks/article4454135/?cmpid=rss1) from Soft Federalist/Foggy Nationalist choices instead of from an economic/social spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1437 "2012-08-02T07:02:50Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Folks, the provinces do not cut a check to the Federal Government. Federal transfers (say for health) and Federal equalization payments (based on Provincial per capita GDP vs. national average) come from general revenues at the federal level. Yes, but the federal general revenue comes from taxes, which in turn come from the citizens of each province. Transfer payments reallocate that revenue, so that poorer provinces get more money from the feds than their citizens paid to the federal government in taxes; richer provinces get less money in transfer payments than their citizens paid in taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1438 "2012-08-02T08:43:21Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’m going with the first nations people here on the coast. We didn’t need the pipeline before and we don’t need it now. In B.C. we’ve got all kinds of sustainable natural resources that have been of use for millenia. There is just no NEED for us to bend over and risk our heritage so that money loving Alberta can get rich unhindered. The crux of it is, this oil is going some where. It’s a natural resource that the world needs and Alberta is sitting on a shitload of it. It’s either going to flow west or south. Personally I’d rather see it flow south because I know Americans would be more appreciative of it. Not only from the job spin-off, but if Americans had a choice between maple leaf oil vs. Saudi or Venezuelan at the pumps, they’d be choosing hoser oil majority of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1439 "2012-08-02T09:05:18Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Not only from the job spin-off, but if Americans had a choice between maple leaf oil vs. Saudi or Venezuelan at the pumps, they’d be choosing hoser oil majority of the time. Even if that was possible, we’d just buy whichever was a penny cheaper anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1440 "2012-08-02T09:06:24Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Saudi or Venezuelan at the pumps, they’d be choosing hoser oil majority of the time. But they cancelled the pipeline that would have brought them this oil. It seems they’d rather get their oil from Saudi or Venezuela after all. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014/1441 "2012-08-02T12:41:26Z")
But [**the U.S. deserves oil from Canada**](http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/02/29/mitt-romney-oil-canada-deserve_n_1310711.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2012-edition-of-the-great-ongoing-canadian-current-events-and-politics-thread/608014.md?page=73)