The CanaDoper Café (2012 edition of The great, ongoing Canadian current events and politics thread.)

Oh, I’m fine with people studying the bible and other religious texts in the context of art, history or general world-religions courses: it’s non-instructional situations in schools that bother me.

Also, I agree that most kids nowadays would probably not turn religious upon reading the bible, as it is rather dry and dull, but I’d worry about teachers, other staff, in-class parent helpers, etc taking the opportunity of kids getting these books to try and indoctrinate students during class time.

I had a half-assed thought the other day - do you know how, in Notre-Dame de Paris, Frollo laments the printing press and the distribution of the bible and other knowledge via books as being the death of the church and of architechture (and architechture as art/storytelling/passing down of cultural beliefs and elements)? There’s a wonderful chapter that reads nearly as a standalone essay about the idea.

It occurred to me, while reading Reddit, that whatever damage the printed word may have had, it is nothing compared to what the electronic word (the internet) can do. Books were seen as a means to potentially disseminate “dangerous” knowledge, but communities and cultural/government leaders had, for many years, the ability to still control what books came into a community or to influence the narrative in local churches, schools, town halls, etc. The internet is different. The internet is everywhere and nowhere and, despite efforts like in China or the Middle East to censor it, there are always ways around it and all kinds of information - good and bad, perhaps - can be obtained by anyone at a moment’s notice. It’s fascinating… I was reading stories from young adults who became atheists because the internet allowed them to read arguments for and against their religions, and there are subreddits for people who need guidance, assisstance or even support for leaving their religious communities, etc. Or stories about how social media was part of the Arab Spring, or the idea of protesting government actions via things like #tellVicEverything and the organization of Occupy movements, etc.

If the printing press was the death of religious archetechture, the internet has the means to deliver a rather killing blow. It might be too diluted in cats, however.

Anyways, it’s sort of a half-thought out, unresearched “essay” and I haven’t bothered to go further with it, but I thought I’d share it anyways since it seemed to fit in with Malthus’ point about how modern kids would perceive the bible if they were to sit down on their own and read it.

Myself, I think the traditional religions are probably doomed in Western society, other than as a sort of ethnic identity - not so much because of the Internet, though that in part. Our society and culture is simply evolving in a manner inimcal to traditional organized religion.

But there’s also this, from your linked article:

Have I got a book for you - What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains: The Shallows (by Nicholas Carr)

Presumably a similar provision covers Ontario’s system of separate Catholic school boards? Or does that have a different history?

Any parent who has such a major problem with religion in general, or christianity in particular, would be well-advised to simply teach their child the right of things each day.

“Have a nice day at school, Jordan. And don’t forget, there is no God.”

“How was your day at school, Morgan? Oh, good honey! Remember, there is no God.”

“Oh, so after you have a sleep-over with Ryleigh Saturday night, her parents will drop you off here on their way to church Sunday morning? Okay, that’s fine. Don’t forget what we’ve talked about; there is no God. Have fun!”

Easy!

This whole God thing just jogged my memory.

Years ago, I attended Al-Anon. My cousin (unrelated to my attendance) had gone through, to some extent, the 12 Step program of AA. Part of the system is to accept that there is a “higher power” influencing your life. So, at one of the meetings I attended, I related to the group that my cousin had accepted that his particular “higher power” was the Stanley Cup. That got a good chuckle.

He’s a big hockey fan, but not too religious.

Why Christianity in particular?

Yes, for the separate schools in Ontario. However, the courts have held that there can’t be school-led prayer in the public schools in Ontario. The difference is that in Alberta and Saskatchewan, there are provisions permitting school-led school prayer in the public schools.

And if Jordan, Morgan or Ryleigh go to school - particularly in Alberta or Saskatchewan, it seems - and proudly says “this is silly, there is no god!” when a Gideon tries to give them a bible or a teacher tries to make them pray, what do you think will happen?

Will the teacher be totally content to just let that slide? Somehow I doubt it. The teacher will punish the child, tell them they are wrong, try and indoctrinate them, maybe even do so in front of the entire class. The child will be made to feel like an outsider and will face considerable pressure to “conform”.

It isn’t OK to tell atheists to “just ignore” all the Christian or religious crap around them, because you know damn well that all the Christians and religious people sure won’t be ignoring the atheists if they dare say anything whatsoever about the topic of gods or faith.

Let Christians or other religious people keep their religion to themselves - then the atheists will keep their lack of religion to themselves and we can all live happily ever after. Insisting on promoting your religion, trying to force it on the public and telling others to “deal with it” isn’t an acceptable solution.
Dr_Doom - I like that story. If I were to claim to believe in any gods, it would be the Hockey Gods…and right now they are mad at the Habs and I don’t know how to appease them :stuck_out_tongue:

Maybe you need a new hockey sweater…

“I prayed to God to send ten million moths to EAT my Toronto Maple Leafs sweater!” - Roch Carrier

Yeah, no. I can only speak for Alberta here, but there’s NO way that is happening in public schools. Just because Alberta has the freedom to have religious education doesn’t mean children are forced into it. (except in Morinville. That’s it’s own little problem)

In Calgary there is the Calgary Board of Education (commonly known as “public”) and the Calgary Seperate School District (“seperate” or “Catholic”)
If you are in the public system, there is no religion. Period.

If you are in the Catholic system, then there are elements of your eduction that are taken from the Catholic faith. You don’t HAVE to be Catholic to send your kids to the Catholic schools, but you really can’t object when someone tries to teach them religion.

A good first step may be to climb the steps of Oratoire St-Joseph on your knees while praying to the hockey gods. Or the hockey version : go from the Forum to the Bell centre on your knees. If that doesn’t work, repeat while whipping yourself with NHL rule book and reciting the confiteor in Latin.

In other news, Canada is the fifth happiest country in the world. We’re Number Five! We’re Number Five! :slight_smile:

I’ll wait for the city street cleaning to really get started… the roads are a little too covered in rocks, mud and dog shit for going around on my knees. Yuck.

Temporarily bumped up to number four as Canadians realize that we are mentioned in international news. They are talking about us!!! YAY CANADA!! :smiley:

Now, if our hockey teams made the playoffs, we’d be even happier! :slight_smile:

Well, let’s understand a few things. The Gideons do not force Bibles on anybody–I think you and I have agreed on that. They stand back and allow people to take their Bibles as they please. Otherwise, they depend on others to supply the Gideons’ Bibles to people: hotels, prisons (my inmate clients admit that they can receive Gideon Bibles if they wish; most don’t), and universities, as you and I have spoken of.

So are the Gideon proseletyzing? Yes.

Are they proseletyzing in the sense that they are being in-your-face obnoxious? I’d suggest no.

The image of a Gideon forcing a child to take a Bible does not accord with what I understand of the organization. They will give a Bible to anybody who wants one, true; but that person must ask for a Bible. While others may demand that the Bibles be read, the Gideons are content that the Bible has been distributed. If a Bible has been given out; well, the Gideons are happy. Whether is is read is another matter, that the Gideons are not concerned with.

So how do we resolve this with the fact that the Gideons supply the Bible to schoolchildren? Well, as has been said, Alberta schools can force prayer in the classroom. Ignoring Catholic schools; public schools, in spite of the fact that they can, generally won’t. And also, as has been said, the Gideons will not force anybody to take their Bibles. If a school board demands that schoolchildren take Bibles; then the school board is afoul of the Constitution, not the Gideons.

So what do we do? In spite of the fact that it would irk other Canadians. I’d suggest that we simply let it be. Yes, we will produce people who are woefully ignorant. I encounter enough in my practice. But one of the things that defines this part of Canada is that it doesn’t change.

Don’t you see ? It’s part of the penance !

See, I disagree. I will be fair to the Gideons and agree that they aren’t obnoxious and pushing things in kid’s faces, but I still think that allowing them to set up on school property at all is unacceptable. There is no place for this sort of distribution of religious texts in public schools (and the provisions that might allow such in Alberta and Saskatchewan need to be removed, which I know is asking a lot, since it’s part of the Constitution… it doesn’t matter to me that it’s unlikely to happen, it is still the right thing to do).

As I said, I don’t think any group - be it political, religious, commercial, etc should be handing out free materials of any kind to students on campus. If I can’t set up a booth and hand out information on the Flying Spagetti Monster or the Communist Party or whatever (because you KNOW it wouldn’t be allowed) then a religious group shouldn’t get a pass.

Just letting it be allows a religious group to do something that other groups can’t do, all in fear of pissing off the idiotic base of supporters of that religion who are stupid enough to issue death threats over it. I say we let them issue death threats, then lock them up for breaking the law. No religion gets a free pass.

:frowning:

I think Sienfeld expressed itbest as to what fans are supporting when it comes to Pro sports teams.

What irks me no end is why tax dollars are supporting a religious education at all! Further, why the Catholic system? It astounds me that Muslims, Mormons or any other religious organization with sufficient followers hasn’t challenged the government to petition for taxpayer funding. as someone who isn’t Catholic and has sent his kids through their system I know how hypocritical that sounds, and my rationale was that they should learn some religious background as they certainly wouldn’t get it from me. Unfortunately, Life often gives us the wisdom much later than the lesson and if I had to do it again, they would have gone into the public system. The Catholic Church particularly has learned what advertising agencies are twigged onto now. Hook em early, Hook em for life, and the earlier the better.
I’m firmly with mnemosyne, teach major religions curricularly, but keep it out of the hallways and parking lots. Maybe if we spent our education tax dollars on music, art and gym, which have demonstrable benefits on overall student achievement , and less on religious mumbo-jumbo we’d have a school system to be envied rather than the plodding mess it has become.
FWIW, I also think that there should be one regional school board for a public system, period. For example, my city’s two boards are in a major pissing contest here about bussing (which they amalgamated to save money) because of different school schedules; just ludicrous. Smaller administration might also mean more money for classrooms instead of Administrative deadweight.
Here endeth the rant…