The CanaDoper Café (2012 edition of The great, ongoing Canadian current events and politics thread.)

I’ll agree with this. Geography and climate protect us far more than the United States does–let’s not forget the messes both Napoleon and Hitler faced when trying to advance armies through Russian winters.

Missiles are really the only way Canada could be threatened. I am old enough to remember the Cuban missile crisis (though not very well), and while that was a Cuba/USSR-USA affair, there was a feeling at the time that Soviet missiles were also targeting Canada. We were a member of NATO and a US ally, after all. But even at that time, there were no concerns about an invasion.

Regardless, geography and climate keep us pretty safe. We’re unlikely to be invaded from any ocean, especially in the winter; and no matter what happens with softwood lumber, the Keystone pipeline, and idiots in Congress who claim that terrorists come from Canada, we’re on good terms with the US. There is little to no chance of a threat coming from there.

I’ll leave those to you young guys. As long as I get rum and cigars. :wink:

What am I saying? I’m not so old that I’ll forego women for rum and cigars, am I?

Well, I think the general thrust of the post is clear enough, but I did muck up the sentence you quoted, which obviously should have said we give up a greater, not lesser, ability to play overseas.

They say tht initial reactions tend to be the most accurate…

Well, I’m not about to attribute Russia’s military capability to us. It is worth noting that the greatest Soviet victory of World War II, Bagration, happened in the middle of summer. .

Indeed, it’s a bad comparison and yet a good example of another point. Russia has a LOT of military threats and always has, because they have so many neighbours; they’ve been invaded from every direction. On the other hand, they’ve been trying to keep up a large military for centuries and it didn’t bring them security until they had a deterrent nuclear force, which suggest “big military” doesn’t bring you security unless it includes the doomsday trigger.

During a long drive, Jim and I went through some scenarios of the US attacking Canada. We came to the conclusion that they are very unlikely to attack us to start with, and they wouldn’t be very successful with it if they did. Canada is a BIG country, and we don’t have a lot of people, in addition to your points about our geography and climate. We’re not known to be a gun-lovin’ nation, but every farm in Canada has a couple of rifles or shotguns on it - I could be wrong, but I think our guerilla efforts would be considerable.

My Great-Grandfather was decorated for his marksmanship during the time of the Fenian Raids; he fought at Eccles Hill. I don’t think the Fenians found it anywhere near as easy to invade Canada as they thought it was going to be.

For all that we are accused (particularly by US Conservatives) of under-funding our armed forces, we always seem to be one of the first nations called upon to support UN peace-keeping missions and military coalitions. Our troops are respected for both their strength and their fairness world wide.

Fair enough all around. I have always thought that Canada was getting a bit of a free ride militarily due to the fact that the US would most certainly be there for us under any circumstances. What I’m hearing is that, regardless of the size, power, abilities of the US military, Canada would never have faced any genuine threat by anyone anyway.

That may be true, but we’ll never know since the US has in fact been our neighbourhood protection for, like, a half a century.

Carry on.

We have also been there for them. I think of the Canadian response after Sept. 11 of 2001, when hundreds of our firefighters went to help, and thousands of stranded US citizens were taken in and looked after. Canadians didn’t do that because we expected to be thanked, we did it because it was the right thing to do for our neighbours and our closest ally.

I’m also very thankful that our borders have never been truly put to the test, mind you. I’d like to think that the spirit that sent Canadians out to volunteer the day after Poland was invaded is still there.

If figure that the last time they were seriously tested (a couple of hundred years ago), eventually led to the formation of Canada as we know it.

No, what you’re hearing from is the ‘Canada, F*** yeah!’ contingent. There is no doubt that without the US, Europe would be speaking German or Russian and once conquered, there would be nothing to stop them from eliminating minor inconveniences like Canada.

How do you see the US eliminating Canada? (Serious question, not snark - as I said, Jim and I have put some thought into this, and we don’t see them being to obliterate Canada easily).

No, what I’m presenting is logic and evidence, and what I’m getting back is “Nuh uh!” and stuff that doesn’t even make sense, like “it’s because of this that we can spend more money on health care,” when we don’t even spend more money on health care.

If you have evidence that we DO spend more money on health care, in defiance of what the governments of the United States and Canada say, present it.

If you have evidence Canada saved money by being a free rider during the Cold War, present it.

If you have evidence the U.S. spent money defending Canada, present it.

I have evidence we’ve spent money and lives defending the United States, though.

This is just ridiculous.

As to speaking German, I can’t even believe someone would mention something so irrelevant. Not to point out the brutally obvious here, but we didn’t have a universal health care system until long after the Second World War, and so the alleged choice between health care and military spending has jack squat to do with whether or not the Nazis could take over Europe. In case you weren’t keeping track, World War II (for us) began in 1939 and ended in 1945, while universal health care was adopted in the 1960s.

And in case you’re also not aware of it, it’s pretty damned silly to suggest Canada was holding back on defense expenditures during the SECOND WORLD WAR. Maybe I wasn’t paying attention during history class, but didn’t we kinda go balls-to-the-wall on that one? Pull our weight and then some?

As to the Russian issue, one thing and one thing only kept the Russians in check; nuclear weapons. Aside from the fact that both the UK and France possessed nuclear weapons for most of the Cold War, even a significantly smaller U.S. military would inevitably have included a nuclear deterrent; indeed, for much of the Cold War the U.S. was involved in a serious internal debate over why they had vastly more nuclear weapons than were actually needed to serve as an effective deterrent.

And it still has nothing to do with how much we spend on health care.

The USA did not participate WWII to protect Canada. It participated in WWII for its own interests.

He was saying the Soviets or Nazis would have conquered Canada.

As to the U.S. invading Canada, come on. Canada’s military wouldn’t last two weeks, and frankly would be well advised to take a few shots in honour of the flag and then give up on Day 1 and just distribute the small arms amongst the populace. It’s great that we fended off invasion in the War of 1812 and the Fenian raids, but the former invasion was by a country that didn’t really have a professional army at all, and the former was a pack of delusional clowns who were less of a threat than the Hells Angels are today.

The problem with a hypothetical American invasion of Canada wouldn’t be that they couldn’t do it - they’d roll over our military like a steamroller over a tricycle - it’d be the aftermath of the USA being an international pariah, massive internal strife, and dealing with guerrilla warfare, terrorism, and non-stop civil conflict on a scale that would make Northern Ireland look like Disneyland. You’d have militia groups shooting Americans, Americans shooting civilians, Quislings cooperating with the invaders and being shot in turn, Canadian groups fighting each other, it’d be horrible.

That sounds a bit like a Walmart parking lot.

The horror… the horror…

Yeah, I got that part.

That’s what I’m wondering about - how he sees a real US invasion of Canada going. I can’t imagine us doing something that would result in the rest of the world saying, “Yeah, USA, you take care of those Canadian bastards. They’ve got it coming.” Is he talking carpet bombing our major cities, which would kill the majority of our population? I agree completely that they can take pretty much what they want here, but can they keep it? Are they going to occupy all of Canada? If we stop saying, “Eh?” how will they tell us from them? You know what a Canadian in an American army uniform looks like? An awful lot like an American.

Maybe like in Red Dawn: “Wolverines!”

Or in our case: “Beaverrrrs!”

:smiley:

Maybe I missed something. I wasn’t saying that the US would invade Canada, nor was I saying anything about Canada spending on Medicare vs. the Military.

I was saying that without the US the world would be quite a bit different than it is today and not for the better. Nuclear weapons did not stop Soviet expansion or cause its eventual downfall. The thing about nuclear weapons is that if you started to use them, then the result is mutual destruction. Was anyone willing to do that for Poland, Czechoslovakia, or Afghanistan? No, so how about Greece, or Turkey if it came down to that? Switzerland or Norway? Which country would the US be willing to risk its own destruction for? Can we agree essentially none?
Okay, so while nukes are on the table, they essentially are invisible because no one is willing to kill themselves to use them. The only alternative is conventional forces. The USSR collapsed in part because it tried to compete with the US in that area.