The CanaDoper Café (2012 edition of The great, ongoing Canadian current events and politics thread.)

[Muffin]

@mnemosyne

The bible has no place in schools unless in a literary context which is the one context bible-thumpers cannot accept. So remove the thing altogether and leave it to university to teach it

Very well said.

[Muffin]

Freedom of religion v. freedom from religion.

[Kenm]

@Spoons

I note you have so far not have mentioned US honours conferred on Canadians: see, for example, the Congressional Medal of Honor conferred upon Canadians:

I have no problem with any Canadian receiving any U.S. medal. Your attempt to draw a parallel between a medal and ennobling a Canadian, then giving that person a foreign title and installing that citizen into the law-making upper house of a foreign country thanks to liberal amounts of cash, defies reason, especially when that person in a fit of petulance threw away his Canadian citizenship to sit in the foreign House of Lords where political interests against their lordship’s country of birth abound.

And let’s not forget that the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry won a Presidential Unit Citation for actions at Kapyong, during the Korean War.

Again, this comparison is and the others that follow it are absurd.

If, as is in the U.S., knighthoods were honorary — surprise, it isn’t the 18th or 19th century anymore — fine.

@Cat_Whisperer

From Kenm’s feverish brain, I suspect.

Why, bless your heart.

[Cat_Whisperer]

I didn’t know you were southern.

[Kenm]

I’m in southern Manitoba.

[Kenm]

BTW, Tom Mulcair is a French citizen.

The issue of dual citizenship has generated controversy in the past with former Liberal leader Stephane Dion and with Michaelle Jean, who gave up her French citizenship to become governor general.

Dual citizenship of a lawmaker at the federal, provincial or municipal levels should be illegal. A conflict-of-interest vote alone against Canada’s interests could be catastrophic, never mind any full-blown legislation favouring another country to Canada’s detriment.

Mulcair should drop his French citizenship or be forced to. His “fears” centre on a Spanish airport incident of 20 years ago, which, apparently supersede that of a possible PM working or appearing to work in the interests of France against those of Canada. Idiot.

[Lord_Feldon]

@Kenm

BTW, Tom Mulcair is a French citizen.Dual citizenship of a lawmaker at the federal, provincial or municipal levels should be illegal.

How exactly would you propose forcing foreign countries to comply with such a law? They’re the ones that determine which Canadian citizens are dual citizens, after all.

[Malthus]

@Muffin

It is important to study any number of things rather than be them. The hitch with Gideons is not that the Bible will be read, but rather that it is used to proselytize and is presented as truth. The primary goal of Gideons is to introduce people to Jesus Christ as the true god. It is not to teach the history of English literature, or the history of religions, or western cultural studies, or any number of other fields in which the Bible has had profound importance. It is to introduce people to Jesus Christ as the true god.

Miller speaks of Frye, under whom he studied. Note that although Frye was a minister, when he taught on the Bible and literature related to the Bible, he placed the bible and religion in context, rather than presenting them as truth with a view to making converts. He was able to use his biblical knowledge, but at the same time distance himself enough from his faith that he was also able to look at the Bible and religion from the outside. He was able to put the bible and religion in context with respect to literature and culture, rather than see literature and culture through the glasses of someone filled with the word of Jesus.

Back when I was reading texts such as the Bible under Frye, I was also reading The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kamph, and many other culturally important texts, but it was not in the context of becoming a Christian, a communist or a fascist. To learn about what we are, we must learn about how such texts have helped form our culture, so to ignore them is to be willfully ignorant.

But just as knowledge of the Bible is important for understanding English literature, it is also important to not be such an adherent to the Bible as to let it stand in the way of critical analysis. That’s where true believers usually fall down, for in accepting and promoting the one true word of god, they tend to turn a blind eye to the simple fact that the Bible is one, albeit the primary one, text of many that collectively have been central to our literary culture and it’s development over many hundreds of years.

Frye used his knowledge, but was not overridden by his faith, when he developed his theories on literary criticism. For someone to teach the Bible in a literary context, I submit that although it is obviously necessary for that person to know the Bible, it is equally important for that person to be intellectually distant enough from the closed system mindset of true believers, such as Gideons, to be able to put the bible and it’s influence into context. It is simple (long and arduous, but simple) for a person to learn the Bible. It is not so simple for a true believer to put his or her profound personal belief into a box, and put the box away in a drawer, for the duration of his or her intellectual pursuit that touches on the Bible as a literary and cultural keystone of English literature and western culture.

When I come across people who are resistant to learning about the Bible or religion from non-believers, I have to wonder if it is that in fact what they want is to hear a reflection and augmentation of their beliefs, rather than an intellectual examination and discussion of how English literature and western culture has been influenced by the Bible and various aspects of Christianity.
In short, if one wants to learn about the Bible’s role in English literature and the development of western culture, one would do better to study under a secular humanist or an atheist rather than someone who has been saved through the word of god to the degree that an intellectual distancing is no longer possible.

This is an argument I just don’t understand.

I fully support keeping the people handing out bibles out of schools, for the simple reason that we should not have just anyone allowed into schools. That makes sense to me.

But the notion that simply being handed a bible is likely to lead to people becoming religious makes no real-world sense to me.

I understand why the Gideons believe it - they are religious and no doubt hope that the kids will read this stuff and, through some sort of divine inspiration, become religious themselves.

I do not understand why sensible non-religious people seem to believe it as well. To my mind the whole thing (other than, as I said, the idea that we can’t have random people allowed into schools to hand stuff out - whatever it may be) is a total non-issue, because the activity - handing out bibles - is going to have a close-to-zero-percent chance, on its own, of actually indoctrinating anyone into the religion.

[Kenm]

@Lord_Feldon

How exactly would you propose forcing foreign countries to comply with such a law? They’re the ones that determine which Canadian citizens are dual citizens, after all.

Foreign countries’ laws are irrelevant. Mulcare lives in Canada, is a member of Parliament and has the potential of being Canada’s prime minister.

If he wants French citizenship, he can have it if his Canadian citizenship is revoked and he is prohibited from being a Canadian lawmaker, never mind PM.

What if another MP, member of a legislature or big-city mayor was a dual Canadian-U.S. citizen? Potential conflicts would be legion, no imagination required. Or Canadian-China/Somalia. . . .

Imagine the stink if a U.S. president was a dual U.S.-Kenya citizen.

[Lord_Feldon]

@Kenm

Foreign countries’ laws are irrelevant.

Where do you think foreign citizenship comes from?

Canada can’t control French citizenship or the House of Lords. For someone who’s so worried about improper foreign influence, you seem to have a pretty grandiose take on Canada’s place in the world.

[Kenm]

@Lord_Feldon

Canada can’t control French citizenship or the House of Lords.

Of course. That’s why Black stamped his feet, held his breath until his face turned blue and threw his Canadian citizenship into the garbage. Not only did His Lordship buy his way into the House of Lords, he owned The Telegraph, for which he bought ink by the barrel to promote his own interests.

For someone who’s so worried about improper foreign influence, you seem to have a pretty grandiose take on Canada’s place in the world.

It has enough place in the world to determine its own future without foreign governments and foreign presidents and monarchs dictating it, unless you think Canada should revert to full colonial status under Westminster, kowtowing to a foreign monarch even more than it does now.

What is so difficult to understand that foreign laws are irrelevant in the country of a citizen’s residence? France could do nothing if Mulcair’s French citizenship was removed under Canadian law. As it should be.

If Black had held dual Canada-U.K. citizenship, the U.K. wouldn’t have stood by doing nothing had he voted against a U.K. law that obviously favoured Canada over itself. The U.K. would have said "We can’t do anything because Canada controls our citizenship laws?

You think that because right-hand drive is the law in the U.K. that Canada can’t make left-hand drive the law?

[Lord_Feldon]

@Kenm

What is so difficult to understand that foreign laws are irrelevant in the country of a citizen’s residence? France could do nothing if Mulcair’s French citizenship was removed under Canadian law. As it should be.

How could Canada remove someone’s French citizenship “under Canadian law”? That’s nonsensical.

[Kenm]

I’ve explained that it couldn’t. Lawmaker’s dual citizenship should not be allowed. If a lawmaker wants to retain dual citizenship, that lawmaker should be expelled from the House, provincial house or city council.

If the dual-citizenship lawmaker wants to remain in the House, provincial house or city council, then the foreign citizenship should be revoked. If that cannot be achieved, the lawmaker or potential lawmaker should be barred from office.

How strong is your desire for a dual Chinese-U.S. citizen to occupy the White House? Do you think the Congress would merely ring its hands and say nothing can be done because foreign citizenship isn’t up to us, and besides, the president would never look favourably on any law regarding China, especially defence?

[Muffin]

@Kenm

How strong is your desire for a dual Chinese-U.S. citizen to occupy the White House? Do you think the Congress would merely ring its hands and say nothing can be done because foreign citizenship isn’t up to us, and besides, the president would never look favourably on any law regarding China, especially defence?

Given the choice of a Chinese-American dual citizen, or the current lot of Republicans who ran in the primaries, I would prefer a Chinese-American dual citizen. Of course I would prefer even more if a Canadian-American dual citizen were president of the USA.

[Lord_Feldon]

@Kenm

If the dual-citizenship lawmaker wants to remain in the House, provincial house or city council, then the foreign citizenship should be revoked. If that cannot be achieved, the lawmaker or potential lawmaker should be barred from office.

So you’d remove foreign influence by making Canadian elections subject to the approval of foreign governments?

[Kenm]

@Muffin

Of course I would prefer even more if a Canadian-American dual citizen were president of the USA.

Yeah. He could speak and write only in French so the U.S. wouldn’t know he wrote an executive order dropping the export tax on poutine.

[Kenm]

@Lord_Feldon

So you’d remove foreign influence by making Canadian elections subject to the approval of foreign governments?

No. I’d make U.S. elections subject to foreign governments. It would have prevented George W. Bush.

[Muffin]

@Kenm

I’ve explained that it couldn’t. Lawmaker’s dual citizenship should not be allowed. If a lawmaker wants to retain dual citizenship, that lawmaker should be expelled from the House, provincial house or city council.

If the dual-citizenship lawmaker wants to remain in the House, provincial house or city council, then the foreign citizenship should be revoked. If that cannot be achieved, the lawmaker or potential lawmaker should be barred from office.

Parliament is formed of the House, the Senate, and the Crown. As I expect you know, Queen Elizabeth is the Crown. She is Queen of a number of nations, not just Canada, therefore I take it that you would barr the Crown from Parliament.

[Kenm]

@Muffin

. . therefore I take it that you would barr the Crown from Parliament.

In a heartbeat. And I’d turn the Senate into a Walmart, hang all the senators from the ceiling and sell them two for a nickel.

If I had managed to capture Betty, I’d put a revolving blue light on her head and sell her for 20 cents.

[mnemosyne]

Ahhh, springtime in Manitoba sounds like fun.

I think it would be really, really funny if Stephen Harper would get Parliament to grant Canadian citizenship to Barack Obama, just to watch the USA implode. Then get China to grant citizenship to Harper, for fun too.

I think a man or woman’s actions speak much louder than the geographical location of his/her or his/her parent’s birth.