# The CanaDoper Café, 2013 edition. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736 "2013-01-01T03:29:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 137
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2721 "2013-11-21T06:03:18Z")
Marc Garneau and Cluster (f\*\*\*) bombs. Marc Garneau was an astronaut. Either they didn’t allow him to touch any of the instruments or it is only recently that he has been attending the school of Liberal logic to come out with such gems. > **[Marc Garneau: Canada cannot stand with allies who use cluster bombs](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/marc-garneau-canada-can-not-stand-with-allies-who-use-cluster-bombs/article15528015/)** > > Canada’s current position on cluster munitions is flawed, says Liberal foreign affairs critic So, a few scenarios come to mind: 1. Russia invades Canada. US decides to help (after about 2 years of Canada fighting alone. About right for the US). US decides to use cluster bombs to save Winnipeg from the invading hordes. Canada is outraged and decides to: A. Not play anymore and go home. B. Tell the US to go home. C. Join the Russians in kicking the US out of Canada. Which one will Marc pick? 2. Major genocide happening in Africa (in other words, business as usual). Canada decides to help. US also decides to help, but needs to use cluster bomb to stop rampaging hordes slaughtering thousands of children in village. Canada decides to: A. Not play anymore and go home (leaving thousands of innocents to die in the hope that some future person may not step on an unexploded mine). B. Tell the US to go home (allowing thousands to die due to no help because Canada’s army is no where near capable of stopping the slaughter). C. Join the rampaging hordes in driving the US out of Africa. Which one will Marc pick? I’m going with C in both scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2722 "2013-11-21T12:28:40Z")
Look, you can object that Marc Garneau’s position on [C-6](http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=6268618&File=4), that exceptions to the convention effectively gut its intent, is naive but your characterization is ridiculous. C-6 says: > [@](#): > > 1. Subject to sections 7, 8 and 10 to 12, it is prohibited for any person to > (a) use a cluster munition, explosive submunition or explosive bomblet; > (b) develop, make, acquire or possess, a cluster munition, explosive submunition or explosive bomblet; > (c) move a cluster munition, explosive submunition or explosive bomblet from a foreign state or territory to another foreign state or territory with the intent to transfer ownership of and control over it; > (d) import or export a cluster munition, explosive submunition or explosive bomblet; > (e) attempt to commit any act referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d); > (f) aid, abet or counsel another person to commit any act referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d); > (g) conspire with another person to commit any act referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d); or > (h) receive, comfort or assist another person, knowing that the person has committed, or has aided or abetted in the commission of, any act referred to in paragraphs (a) to (d), for the purpose of enabling the person to escape. So what are in sections 11 and 12 (9 simply states a minister may revoke an exception) Section 11 (Exceptions — military cooperation or combined military operations) > [@](#): > > 1. (1) Section 6 does not prohibit a person who is subject to the Code of Service Discipline under any of paragraphs 60(1)(a) to (g) and (j) of the National Defence Act or who is an employee as defined in subsection 2(1) of the Public Service Employment Act, in the course of military cooperation or combined military operations involving Canada and a state that is not a party to the Convention, from… Section 12 (Exception for peace officers, etc.) > [@](#): > > 1. Section 6 does not prohibit a person, in the course of the person’s duties or employment, from acquiring, possessing, importing or exporting a cluster munition, explosive submunition or explosive bomblet, or from moving that munition from a foreign state or territory to another foreign state or territory with the intent to transfer ownership of and control over it, for the purpose of destroying or deactivating it or for the purpose of investigations or proceedings under an Act of Parliament, if the person is… Garneau’s position is, essentially, if you are against something for moral reasons (cluster munitions are inherently immoral) then having proxies use them for you, or on your behalf, is hypocritical. That’s not a particularly staggering thought. What is weird is that the [convention](http://clusterconvention.org/files/2011/01/Convention-ENG.pdf)itself reads as follows: > [@](#): > > 1. Notwithstanding the provisions of Article 1 of this Convention and in accordance with international law, States Parties, their military personnel or nationals, may engage in military cooperation and operations with States not party to this Convention that might engage in activities prohibited to a State Party. So Garneau’s position is that the Canadian government, by applying the conventions standards, is undermining the convention. I’m not sure he realizes that what he’s arguing isn’t that C-6 is a bad bill, but that Canada should be an advocate for a stronger convention. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2723 "2013-11-21T13:00:51Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Look, you can object that Marc Garneau’s position on [C-6](http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&DocId=6268618&File=4), that exceptions to the convention effectively gut its intent, is naive but your characterization is ridiculous. You can’t see a situation where both Canada and the US think military intervention is required, but Canada will choose not to act because its ally, the most powerful military in the world, is involved? You can’t imagine a scenario where action trumps feel good laws? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2724 "2013-11-21T13:19:10Z")
I can think of numerous ones. The editorial however speaks to taking a consistent moral approach to cluster munitions similar to land mines. Principled opposition in an Opposition Critic isn’t the worst thing we could be dealing with. Imagine if we had to explain to children that criminal behaviour and associations aren’t a deal breaker when you get into political office. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2725 "2013-11-22T02:14:46Z")
[Pair of convicted pedophiles can’t be deported back to Iraq, to be released in Canada.](http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/11/20/pair-of-convicted-pedophiles-yet-to-be-deported-to-iraq)This article says what I’m thinking - if Iraq is known to refuse to allow deportation of Iraqi criminals from Canada, then we stop immigration from Iraq. If Iraq won’t play by the rules, we’ll just take immigrants from every other country in the world, and Iraq can go to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2726 "2013-11-22T03:42:21Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > I can think of numerous ones. The editorial however speaks to taking a consistent moral approach to cluster munitions similar to land mines. A moral approach that is only relevant because it is unlikely to be questioned unless there are extreme circumstances. But when it happens many could be at risk while we dither over an ill conceived moral stance. > [@](#): > > Principled opposition in an Opposition Critic isn’t the worst thing we could be dealing with. It demonstrates that reality and theory are two different things to people who should know better and want to run the country. If they said, we want to follow this moral principle, but we know that there might be areas where we can’t, then fine. I understand that there can be a difference between theory and practice. I have to deal with it every day. But it is usually the Left accusing the Right of their Black and White world view and here they are doing it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2727 "2013-11-22T03:45:18Z")
Not immigration - why punish Iraqis that have done no wrong - but I could agree with preventing Iraqi citizens from entering Canada. So if you’re Iraqi and are passing through or coming to Canada you get turned back. Actual immigrants would be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2728 "2013-11-22T04:06:12Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > A moral approach that is only relevant because it is unlikely to be questioned unless there are extreme circumstances. But when it happens many could be at risk while we dither over an ill conceived moral stance. > > It demonstrates that reality and theory are two different things to people who should know better and want to run the country. If they said, we want to follow this moral principle, but we know that there might be areas where we can’t, then fine. I understand that there can be a difference between theory and practice. I have to deal with it every day. But it is usually the Left accusing the Right of their Black and White world view and here they are doing it themselves. I’m not sure there’s a monopoly on political parties accusing the other of moral turpitude. 🙂 But if we want legislation we’re happy with both pragmatically and morally I want an opposition critic to take that stance. So when we get someone, say Lyod Axeworthy, going on about the supremacy of soft power we have a critic to point out that being the stern handmaiden of god and not actually bringing anything to the table is next to useless. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2729 "2013-11-22T04:59:15Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Not immigration - why punish Iraqis that have done no wrong - but I could agree with preventing Iraqi citizens from entering Canada. So if you’re Iraqi and are passing through or coming to Canada you get turned back. Actual immigrants would be fine. I’m not sure how you’d qualify that; I agree that punishing good people who legitimately want to immigrate to Canada because of their government’s policies and because of some bad apples might be extreme, but if their government wants to make our risk too high, then we can eliminate the risk. Iraqis can blame their government for being assholes in the international community. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2730 "2013-11-22T05:35:11Z")
That’s why god invented parachutes. One gentle push at 4,000 metres over Iraq and no more problem. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2731 "2013-11-22T07:21:51Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That’s why god invented parachutes. One gentle push at 4,000 metres over Iraq and no more problem. And why should the government be on the hook for the cost of parachutes?😉 ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2732 "2013-11-22T09:28:22Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That’s why god invented parachutes. One gentle push at 4,000 metres over Iraq and no more problem. Why waste a parachute ? These things don’t grow on trees (only those made of silk), you know. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2733 "2013-11-22T11:24:42Z")
> [@detop](#): > > Why waste a parachute ? These things don’t grow on trees (only those made of silk), you know. Could always bill the family for the cost of the parachute. Y’know, like the Chinese charge the condemned’s family for the price of the bullet. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2734 "2013-11-22T13:59:52Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Could always bill the family for the cost of the parachute. Y’know, like the Chinese charge the condemned’s family for the price of the bullet. Why stop there, let’s bill them for the plane fare also. (BTW, the bullet price thing is a _canard_. What they charge for is for recuperating the body) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2735 "2013-11-22T17:30:43Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That’s why god invented parachutes. One gentle push at 4,000 metres over Iraq and no more problem. Perfect. Your government won’t accept you without the paperwork you won’t sign? Adios, amigo. You’re not our problem any longer. I think what’s bugging me the most is the convicted pedophile and his family’s attitude that Canada owes them something - if you wanted to stay in Canada, you should have _not_ committed heinous crimes. That’s working for thousands of other Iraqi citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2736 "2013-11-22T18:35:23Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Perfect. Your government won’t accept you without the paperwork you won’t sign? Adios, amigo. You’re not our problem any longer. > > I think what’s bugging me the most is the convicted pedophile and his family’s attitude that Canada owes them something - if you wanted to stay in Canada, you should have _not_ committed heinous crimes. That’s working for thousands of other Iraqi citizens. What’s bugging me the most is his refusal to admit guilt and his victim blaming. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2737 "2013-11-22T19:50:51Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > What’s bugging me the most is his refusal to admit guilt and his victim blaming. Raping a seven year old for a couple of years and then blaming him. He should be put away for a lot longer (ideally as a dangerous offender), but given the penalty allowed by law and as applied through the sentencing guidelines, I understand the sentence given. I would support the raising of the max (10 yrs I believe) to life with tight parole conditions for kiddie rapists. The [judge](http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2008/08/08/6383366-sun.html) said his evidence was “so illogical and preposterous as to lead to the conclusion it was concocted in an effort to explain away very damning evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2738 "2013-11-23T08:03:21Z")
On a completely unrelated topic, this Dread Pirate fully endorses the level of piratism displayed tonight by our very own **Spoons** on stage in Lethbridge. Well done, ye scurvy dog! ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2739 "2013-11-23T08:05:19Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > What’s bugging me the most is his refusal to admit guilt and his victim blaming. Oh yeah, that’s not sitting well, either. > [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > On a completely unrelated topic, this Dread Pirate fully endorses the level of piratism displayed tonight by our very own **Spoons** on stage in Lethbridge. Well done, ye scurvy dog! Well done indeed! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2013, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/2740 "2013-11-23T08:53:34Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > On a completely unrelated topic, this Dread Pirate fully endorses the level of piratism displayed tonight by our very own **Spoons** on stage in Lethbridge. Well done, ye scurvy dog! > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Well done indeed! 🙂 Arrr! I be thankin’ ye both for the compliments, and for comin’ to the show! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736.md?page=136) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736.md?page=138)