# The CanaDoper Café, 2013 edition. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 1, 2013, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736 "2013-01-01T03:29:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 93
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1841 "2013-07-29T18:29:38Z")
> [@Dr\_Doom](#): > > Happy Canada Day, everyone! Alarm clock goes off… “I got you, babe, I got you, babe…” ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1842 "2013-07-29T18:53:24Z")
> [@Dr\_Doom](#): > > Happy Canada Day, everyone! Thanks, **Dr\_Doom** ; that’s very nice of you. 🙂 I agree with your assessment, **Grey**. I can’t imagine any politician wanting to be the one to “take all the money away from First Nations people,” even if the funding they’re currently getting is contributing to all the problems they’re having. The optics of that just won’t play at all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1843 "2013-07-29T19:39:01Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > From my own ancestry, my mom’s people are Mennonites. I speak a couple of words of Low German and make a couple of Mennonite dishes. I’m sure old Mennonites aren’t thrilled by their progeny becoming 99% Canadian and 1% Mennonite. When people immigrate to Canada, in two generations, their kids are as Canadian as anyone (often to the older folks’ chagrin). I really don’t see anything that makes Aboriginal culture immune to this. While it’s true that kids from minority cultures tend to become more Canadian than their parents, the government didn’t forcibly remove Mennonite children from their parents and put them in (abusive) residential schools with the explicit goal of converting them to (a different form of) Christianity. In other words while I’m sure the traditional aboriginal culture was doomed, there was a conscious effort by the government to destroy it. An effort that didn’t exist for (most) immigrant groups. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1844 "2013-07-29T23:20:33Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#): > > While it’s true that kids from minority cultures tend to become more Canadian than their parents, the government didn’t forcibly remove Mennonite children from their parents and put them in (abusive) residential schools with the explicit goal of converting them to (a different form of) Christianity. > > In other words while I’m sure the traditional aboriginal culture was doomed, there was a conscious effort by the government to destroy it. An effort that didn’t exist for (most) immigrant groups. True enough. Let’s all hop in the time machine, then, and go back what, 100? 200 years? and fix all the problems. 🙂 The bottom line is, Aboriginal culture is going or gone, just like so many cultures in the history of the world; what do you think non-Aboriginal Canadians can do about that, other than feel bad? ETA: That is a serious question, not snark. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1845 "2013-07-30T03:12:39Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > True enough. Let’s all hop in the time machine, then, and go back what, 100? 200 years? and fix all the problems. 🙂 > > The bottom line is, Aboriginal culture is going or gone, just like so many cultures in the history of the world; what do you think non-Aboriginal Canadians can do about that, other than feel bad? If I haven’t the slightest idea what we can do, I have no bright ideas for ending violence in the middle-east either. What we’re doing now certainly doesn’t seem to be helping anyone. It’s not like I think their culture would survive unchanged in the face of the massive wave of European immigration, but I do understand why some want to call what was done (cultural) genocide. And comparisons to other groups voluntarily assimilating really seems to be minimizing the horror. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1846 "2013-07-30T05:27:10Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#): > > If I haven’t the slightest idea what we can do, I have no bright ideas for ending violence in the middle-east either. What we’re doing now certainly doesn’t seem to be helping anyone. > > It’s not like I think their culture would survive unchanged in the face of the massive wave of European immigration, but I do understand why some want to call what was done (cultural) genocide. And comparisons to other groups voluntarily assimilating really seems to be minimizing the horror. I’m not trying to minimize how bad involuntary assimilation was; I’m just saying that this is what happens when two different groups collide, all the way back through human history. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1847 "2013-07-30T06:12:31Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > The bottom line is, Aboriginal culture is going or gone, just like so many cultures in the history of the world; what do you think non-Aboriginal Canadians can do about that, other than feel bad? > > ETA: That is a serious question, not snark. The obvious initial answer is to stop federal policy that works to undermine first nation’s culture. The next, it seems to me, would be to re-open the constitution focused on elevating first nations into nations (or peoples) within Canada and consequently remove the federal government from its fiduciary responsibility towards natives which is rooted in a 19th century colonial mindset. To do that is going to take better people in parliament, and maybe better Canadians, than we have right now. Recognizing Quebec as distinct is hard enough, imagine trying to do the same with the members of the AFN. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1848 "2013-07-30T09:21:21Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > The next, it seems to me, would be to re-open the constitution focused on elevating first nations into nations (or peoples) within Canada and consequently remove the federal government from its fiduciary responsibility towards natives which is rooted in a 19th century colonial mindset. No. The next step should be to remove any mention of first nations from the constitution. Everyone will be a Canadian equally. Any land that Natives have on reservations will be handed over to the band to do with as they will. They can sell it or strip mine it as any other Canadian can do (with the proper permits, etc.). Any legacy for future generations of Natives will depend upon what their parents do now. Exactly like every other Canadian can expect from their parents. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1849 "2013-07-30T12:56:48Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > No. The next step should be to remove any mention of first nations from the constitution. Everyone will be a Canadian equally. Any land that Natives have on reservations will be handed over to the band to do with as they will. They can sell it or strip mine it as any other Canadian can do (with the proper permits, etc.). Any legacy for future generations of Natives will depend upon what their parents do now. Exactly like every other Canadian can expect from their parents. This doesn’t sound like the type of thing any political party would be willing to take on. So, we’re stuck with the status quo forever. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1850 "2013-07-30T13:40:23Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > No. The next step should be to remove any mention of first nations from the constitution. Everyone will be a Canadian equally. Any land that Natives have on reservations will be handed over to the band to do with as they will. They can sell it or strip mine it as any other Canadian can do (with the proper permits, etc.). Any legacy for future generations of Natives will depend upon what their parents do now. Exactly like every other Canadian can expect from their parents. But their legal standing has never been the same as other Canadians. Treaties since 1700s make it perfectly clear that they are members of governing units \*inside \*the political and geographic boundaries of Canada. Which part do you suggest we throw out and which parts do we keep and what price do you suggest we pay for disregarding the 300 years of agreements between the crown and natives? They have legal rights now which your plan would have them forfeit and they would argue that the government, through its actions, has forced them into poverty on scraps of marginal land. So your plan would give them less than they are owed and remove rights they have now. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1851 "2013-07-30T14:40:19Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > So your plan would give them less than they are owed and remove rights they have now. What are they or anyone else ‘owed’? And no rights would be removed that any other Canadian doesn’t already have. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1852 "2013-07-30T15:42:47Z")
They are owed rights under the Treaties, covering areas where they have surrendered aboriginal rights. And, in areas not covered by treaty, they have aboriginal title claims, a form of property rights that have been recognised by the courts and governments since 1763. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1853 "2013-07-30T16:11:26Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > What are they or anyone else ‘owed’? And no rights would be removed that any other Canadian doesn’t already have. Bolding is mine > [@Highlights from the Report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples](#): > > Aboriginal lands south of the 60th parallel (mainly Indian reserves) make up **less than one-half of one per cent of the Canadian land mass**. By contrast, in the United States (excluding Alaska), where Aboriginal people make up a far smaller portion of the population, they hold three per cent of the land (see map). > > Land reserved for Aboriginal people was **steadily whittled away after its original allocation**. Almost two-thirds of it has ‘disappeared’ by various means since Confederation. In some cases, **the government failed to deliver as much land as specified in a treaty**. In other cases, it **expropriated or sold reserved land, rarely with First Nations as willing vendors**. Once in a while, **outright fraud took place**. Even when First Nations were able to keep hold of reserved land, the government sometimes sold its resources to outsiders. > > These disappearances took place despite the solemn duty of the Crown to manage lands and resources for the benefit of Aboriginal people. Basically we (the royal we) fucked them over as soon as we (the royal we) could. That at least suggests that legally and morally we (the royal we) owe them. So it goes back to what do we do? They are by treaty under the Crown and so are Canadians but they are specified as nations within Canada. So how, given our hundreds of years of intertwined growth do we fix the mess we’re in? Self-government and control over first nation lands seems a starting place but most strike me as places with poor or little infrastructure in place to take on those kinds of activities. Maybe we expand the idea. Most of these places are effectively municipalities though some are spread over large swaths of land. What if we re-organized our municipalities into 2 classes? The larger ones would no longer exist as creatures of the provinces but exist as actual levels of government within the Canadian framework. First nations by virtue of their treaty rights would automatically fall into that classification while others like Toronto could elect to become provincially independent. It allows resource ownership/taxation powers to the new city class, sits them within a Canadian framework and broadens the idea of everyone being Canadian. Might be problematic with provincial coffers but it’s a thought. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1854 "2013-07-30T16:17:25Z")
I want to go on record, whichever record that may be, as falling squarely in the camp that desires more government. Bureaucracy for all! ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1855 "2013-07-30T16:35:13Z")
Happy Canada Day! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1856 "2013-07-30T16:47:09Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Happy Canada Day! 😉 And also to you, brother. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1857 "2013-07-30T17:05:42Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > \ > So it goes back to what do we do? They are by treaty under the Crown and so are Canadians but they are specified as nations within Canada. So how, given our hundreds of years of intertwined growth do we fix the mess we’re in? Self-government and control over first nation lands seems a starting place but most strike me as places with poor or little infrastructure in place to take on those kinds of activities. > > Maybe we expand the idea. Most of these places are effectively municipalities though some are spread over large swaths of land. What if we re-organized our municipalities into 2 classes? The larger ones would no longer exist as creatures of the provinces but exist as actual levels of government within the Canadian framework. First nations by virtue of their treaty rights would automatically fall into that classification while others like Toronto could elect to become provincially independent. It allows resource ownership/taxation powers to the new city class, sits them within a Canadian framework and broadens the idea of everyone being Canadian. Might be problematic with provincial coffers but it’s a thought. Isn’t that kind of how reservations are run now? As far as I know, reservations do have self-government and control over their own lands. The bands don’t answer to the provinces - they answer to the federal government. In fact, doing a little research, it sounds like the bands would do better if they _were_ under provincial jurisdiction - the level of government that they would be dealing with may be more accessible and accountable then. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1858 "2013-07-30T22:20:29Z")
So the Amazing Race Canada aired the Calgary episode this week. They had a quick blurb about the flood and pointed people to [Alberta.ca](http://alberta.ca/index.cfm) to find out how to help. I invite you all to find anything on that website about how you can assist in the flood recovery. ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1859 "2013-07-31T00:29:46Z")
Speaking of Amazing Race, what is with the spoilers in the banner ads during the show? I knew the ending about 15 minutes before the end of the show thanks to the Blackberry banner ad! And I read fast so it was there before my eyes and I read it before I realized what it was. Grrr ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736/1860 "2013-07-31T02:36:48Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Isn’t that kind of how reservations are run now? As far as I know, reservations do have self-government and control over their own lands. The bands don’t answer to the provinces - they answer to the federal government. In fact, doing a little research, it sounds like the bands would do better if they _were_ under provincial jurisdiction - the level of government that they would be dealing with may be more accessible and accountable then. If I understand it right, the federal government acts in the band’s best interests when it comes to land and resources. So the bands own them but the federal government is the one in the driver’s seat. I think, **Muffin** , **Northern Piper** or **Spoons** would likely know more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736.md?page=92) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-canadoper-cafe-2013-edition/645736.md?page=94)