# "The Captain always goes down with the ship" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 13, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809 "2006-01-13T13:33:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gaucho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c67d28/32.png) [@gaucho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaucho)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/1 "2006-01-13T13:33:18Z")
Has the ever actually (voluntarily) happened? Is it a literary/Hollywood invention, or was it once part of some honor code of the sea? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/2 "2006-01-13T14:10:11Z")
I remember a case several years ago when a cruise ship ran into some trouble, and the officers abandoned it, _including the captain_. Far from going down with his ship, he was one of the first ones off! He didn’t even see to the safety of his passengers. There was an international outcry over that one. IIRC, the captain was unrepentant. So I wouldn’t count of the tradition at all. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/3 "2006-01-13T14:36:43Z")
The captain is responceable for getting everyone off the ship before himself. After that if he sticks around I’d say he needs mental help. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/4 "2006-01-13T14:44:00Z")
The Captain of the _Titanic_ went down with the ship. Whether or not it was voluntary seems to be questionable. [This site](http://www.webtitanic.net/framecaptain.html) seems to indicate that Captain Smith was sort of in a daze after the collision. > [@](#): > > About 11.40 p.m.Captain Smith was awakened by the collision and rushed to the bridge. He received the report of the accident from Murdoch and then made a quick inspection of the ship with Thomas Andrews. He immediately ordered the boats prepared but wavered when it came to giving the order to load and lower them Lightoller had to approach him for the order which he eventually gave. > > Surprisingly little is known about Smith’s actions in the last two hours of the ships life. His legendary skills of leadership seem to have left him, he was curiously indecisive and unusually cautious. > > He was last seen in the bridge area having given the final order to abandon ship. He appears to have made no attempt to save himself. His body, if recovered, was never identified. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/5 "2006-01-13T15:01:19Z")
I can find general stories as far back as the 1850’s in US newspapers which _generally_ indicate that this was a naval tradition, started by the British. Please don’t take that as gospel. There are more than a few incidents where this happened, again as far back in news stories as the 1850’s. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/6 "2006-01-13T15:04:07Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I remember a case several years ago when a cruise ship ran into some trouble, and the officers abandoned it, _including the captain_. Far from going down with his ship, he was one of the first ones off! He didn’t even see to the safety of his passengers. > There was an international outcry over that one. IIRC, the captain was unrepentant. That was the Oceanos, which sunk in 1991 off the coast of South Africa. I remember the captain later said something along the lines of “When I give the order abandon ship, it doesn’t matter what time I leave. If some people want to stay, they can stay.” IIRC it was the entertainment crew that got the guests to the lifeboats. ---
**Author:** ![MMI](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/53a042/32.png) [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/7 "2006-01-13T16:50:44Z")
> [@gaucho](#): > > Has the ever actually (voluntarily) happened? Is it a literary/Hollywood invention, or was it once part of some honor code of the sea? I would imagine that it’s one way to avoid the question “what have you done with my ship?” ---
**Author:** ![Enterprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/76d3ee/32.png) [@Enterprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enterprise)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/8 "2006-01-13T18:24:40Z")
> [@gaucho](#): > > Has the ever actually (voluntarily) happened? Is it a literary/Hollywood invention, or was it once part of some honor code of the sea? It certainly has. Captains Yanagimoto of SORYU and Kaka of HIRYU (as well as Admiral Yamaguchi, commanding Carrier Division 2) chose to go down with their ships at Midway, as did Captain Aoki of AKAGI, who, however, was prevented from doing so by his crew. In both cases, it is arguable that the captains were dead before their ships sank (Yanagimoto probably seppuku’ing himself, and Yanagimoto killing himself in the flames ravaging his ship). Other Japanese captains did the same (though not as many as commonly believed). In most other cases, it seems arguable whether the Captains killed wanted to go down with their ships, or merely stayed on board while there were others still on board, too, and got killed as a result. Captain Leach of PRINCE OF WALES did not survive the sinking of his ship and was last seen standing on the bridge rather calmly; Captain Lindemann of BISMARCK ditto, apparently. Where the origin of that idea lies, though, I have no idea. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2006, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/9 "2006-01-13T19:26:32Z")
Here’s one idea that could be feasible. [Cite](http://archives.stupidquestion.net/sq4899.html) > [@](#): > > Maj. Sean Griffin, a Marine officer instructor at Ohio State University’s naval science department, said “going down with the ship” may be a tradition that makes a virtue of necessity. > > ``` > Griffin said that in the early days of sea travel, ships were often in bad shape, there was no life-preserving system, and most sailors couldn’t even swim. > > “They were fatalists,” Griffin said. > > Captains were usually the heavily indebted owners of their ships, which were uninsured. > > “If the ship’s going down, what’s the point of surviving?” Griffin said. “If your livelihood is destroyed, it’s a psychological shock. Your entire world comes down.” > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/10 "2006-01-14T01:38:40Z")
Yes it happened at least once during [WW II](http://www.csp.navy.mil/ww2boats/sculpin.htm) > [@](#): > > About 12 men rode the ship down, including Captain Cromwell and one other officer, both of whom refused to leave it. Captain Cromwell, being familiar with plans for our operations in the Gilberts and other areas, stayed with the ship to insure that the enemy could not gain any of the information he possessed. For this action, ComSubPac recommended that he be given the Congressional Medal of Honor. Outside of war as long as at least one member of the crew is aboard, a ship is not abandoned and it not salvage. Back in the 1950s there was a case of a Swedish ship captain not abandoning his ship when it developed a severe list (the lee rail was in the water IIRC). After several days a line was attached and the ship towed to safety. If he had abandoned ship, it would have been salvage, and available for anyone to recover. I saw a story about this captain, and the rescue in the not too distant past on TV, but the names and exact dates escape me. My Google fu is weak today and I can’t find it. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/11 "2006-01-14T01:46:09Z")
I was always under the impression that this tradition started with the sinking of the _[Birkenhead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Birkenhead_%281845%29)_ in 1852. Are there earlier examples? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/12 "2006-01-14T02:19:31Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > I was always under the impression that this tradition started with the sinking of the _[Birkenhead](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Birkenhead_%281845%29)_ in 1852. Are there earlier examples? I think that’s it. It’s called the “Birkenhead Drill”: Women and children must be first in the lifeboats, then the crew, then officers in reverse order of seniority. The captain doesn’t have to go down with the ship but he should be the last man into the last lifeboat, and if there’s no space left by then he dies. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/13 "2006-01-14T02:41:43Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Outside of war as long as at least one member of the crew is aboard, a ship is not abandoned and it not salvage. Back in the 1950s there was a case of a Swedish ship captain not abandoning his ship when it developed a severe list (the lee rail was in the water IIRC). After several days a line was attached and the ship towed to safety. If he had abandoned ship, it would have been salvage, and available for anyone to recover. This certainly isn’t correct today in any jurisdiction of which I am aware. There is an entitlement to a salvage award any time there is effective voluntary assistance to a vessel in distress, whether there is anyone on board or not. It may be that somewhere, at some time, salvors obtained a greater entitlement if the ship was abandoned. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/14 "2006-01-14T02:52:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > It’s called the “Birkenhead Drill” As immortalized in Kipling’s famous poem, “Soldier an’ Sailor Too”:[ > [@Rudyard Kipling](#): > > To take your chance in the thick of a rush, with firing all about, > Is nothing so bad when you’ve cover to ‘and, an’ leave an’ likin’ to shout; > But to stand an’ be still to the Birken’ead drill is a damn tough bullet to chew, > An’ they done it, the Jollies – ‘Er Majesty’s Jollies – soldier an’ sailor too! > Their work was done when it ‘adn’t begun; they was younger nor me an’ you; > Their choice it was plain between drownin’ in ‘eaps an’ bein’ mopped by the screw, > So they stood an’ was still to the Birken’ead drill, soldier an’ sailor too! ]([http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/soldier\_and\_sailor\_too.html](http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/soldier_and_sailor_too.html))The drill itself is named for a legendary example of chivalrous and courageous action:[ > [@SUBMERGED productions](#): > > Lt. Colonel Seton stood before his men and begged them to stand fast as any attempt to save themselves would only mean certain death for the women and children. The ranks of troops stood fast. Not one man tried to save himself. As if on cue the Birkenhead gave an almighty shudder, and then the sea started to wash right over the deck. Still the soldiers and sailors stood firm, heads held high, as they prepared themselves to make their final sacrifice. Throughout this tragic event the courage and self discipline that these men showed was to be forever recorded in history, and became known as the Birkenhead Drill. ]([Birkenhead - Submerged](http://www.submerged.co.uk/birkenhead.php)) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/15 "2006-01-14T02:52:43Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > This certainly isn’t correct today in any jurisdiction of which I am aware. There is an entitlement to a salvage award any time there is effective voluntary assistance to a vessel in distress, whether there is anyone on board or not. > > It may be that somewhere, at some time, salvors obtained a greater entitlement if the ship was abandoned. Dunno how historically accurate this is – but, in Edward Rutherfurd’s historical novel _Sarum_ – [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804102988/qid=1137207011/sr=2-1/ref=pd\_bbs\_b\_2\_1/102-7700619-9802506?s=books&v=glance&n=283155](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804102988/qid=1137207011/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-7700619-9802506?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) – the residents of English coastal towns routinely “salvaged” wrecked ships. But they only had right of salvage if there were no survivors. So, after every storm they headed down to the beach carrying . . . implements that might come in useful. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/16 "2006-01-14T04:59:01Z")
There is confusion of terminology here. In common use, I guess the word “salvage” is used to mean simply recover. In maritime use, someone who gives effective voluntary assistance to save maritime property is entitled to a reward, usually calculated as a percentage of the value of the property salved (saved). Property lost at sea (broadly, flotsam, jetsam, ligan and derelict) are sometimes, in some jurisdictions, known collectively as “wreck”. The laws governing the entitlements of someone who finds “wreck” are complex and vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Suffice to say, if you find “wreck”, you will probably be entitled to a salvage award. You may also be entitled to keep the “wreck” you find, and (relevant to this particular hijack) broadly speaking _your chances of being able to keep the “wreck” improve if there is no one else around to claim it_, hence the homicidal tendencies of professional wreckers in times gone by. So it is correct to say that a master who remains on board might minimise the ship/cargo owners’ outlay to salvors, but he will not prevent salvage as such. Interestingly, the official person appointed to look after “wreck” in Australia and the UK is the Reciever of Wreck. As you can imagine, at least in my jurisdiction, the Receiver of Wreck’s duties are rather light these days. In fact, I once had a client contact me who had found some fairly valuable “wreck”. He wanted to know what his rights were. I told him that he had to give it to the Reciever of Wreck, but I then had a lot of difficult figuring out who the Reciever of Wreck was. I eventually found legislation that automatically appointed the head of a particular government department the “Reciever of Wreck”. I rang him up. I told him I was ringing him in his capacity as Receiver of Wreck. He said “huh?”. I then explained to him that he was in fact the Reciever of Wreck. He said “I am?” I then had to explain to him what his duties were. Admittedly, he hadn’t been in the job as head of the particular government department for long. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/17 "2006-01-14T14:00:40Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Outside of war as long as at least one member of the crew is aboard, a ship is not abandoned and it not salvage. Back in the 1950s there was a case of a Swedish ship captain not abandoning his ship when it developed a severe list (the lee rail was in the water IIRC). After several days a line was attached and the ship towed to safety. If he had abandoned ship, it would have been salvage, and available for anyone to recover. > I saw a story about this captain, and the rescue in the not too distant past on TV, but the names and exact dates escape me. My Google fu is weak today and I can’t find it. Anyone? Kurt Carlson and the [_Flying Enterprise_](http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/lookback/page15.phtml), though the attempt to tow it to safety failed and both Carlson and Dancy (the guy who’d earlier jumped aboard to help him) had to abandon the ship by leaping into the sea shortly before she sunk. [This page](http://www.teesships.freeuk.com/1129flying3.htm) has some better pictures of the stricken vessel. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/18 "2006-01-14T17:56:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Dunno how historically accurate this is – but, in Edward Rutherfurd’s historical novel _Sarum_ – [http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804102988/qid=1137207011/sr=2-1/ref=pd\_bbs\_b\_2\_1/102-7700619-9802506?s=books&v=glance&n=283155](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804102988/qid=1137207011/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-7700619-9802506?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) – the residents of English coastal towns routinely “salvaged” wrecked ships. But they only had right of salvage if there were no survivors. So, after every storm they headed down to the beach carrying . . . implements that might come in useful. And in _Quicksilver_ by Neal Stephenson – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicksilver\_(novel)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicksilver_%28novel%29) – the men of the island of Qwghlm ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwghlm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwghlm)) actually set up false signals to lure ships onto the rocks (and then do the same as described above). It appears to be their main source of income. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/19 "2014-04-21T18:07:57Z")
The same was said of the people of the Outer Banks of North Carolina in the age of sail. Bumping this old thread due to recent developments, that is, the _Costa Concordia_ disaster off the coast of Italy, and the sinking of the South Korean ferry _Sewol_ this weekend. Both times, the captain abandoned ship before many passengers had the chance to. > **[Abandon ship? In recent maritime disasters, captains don't hang around | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2014/04/21/world/asia/ship-captain-role/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)** > > The Sewol and the Costa Concordia have raised questions about a captain’s obligations to passengers ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809/20 "2014-04-21T18:16:20Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I remember a case several years ago when a cruise ship ran into some trouble, and the officers abandoned it, _including the captain_. Far from going down with his ship, he was one of the first ones off! He didn’t even see to the safety of his passengers. > There was an international outcry over that one. IIRC, the captain was unrepentant. > So I wouldn’t count of the tradition at all. Surely it would have been the Costa Concordia cruise liner, which foundered off the coast of Italy in January 2012 with more than 4,000 people on board. It was reported that that the captain abandoned ship three-and-a-half hours before the last of his crew and passengers. The procurators’ office in Grosseto said that the Concordia hit submerged rocks at 9.45pm on Friday, and the last of the ship’s complement were not evacuated until 3am yesterday, but that Captain Francesco Schettino allegedly left at 11.30pm. He has now been detained for questioning over manslaughter, abandoning ship, and causing a shipwreck. The case is still ongoing. I believe he claimed to have ‘accidentally’ fallen into a lifeboat. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-captain-always-goes-down-with-the-ship/339809.md?page=2)