# The Carpenters: A (Re) Appreciation **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [September 7, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281 "2021-09-07T23:20:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/21 "2021-09-08T22:03:19Z")
Wow, thank you everyone for the kind words! I enjoyed reading them as much as I enjoyed writing the piece, and I am truly glad y’all appreciated it. Let me start this Omnibus reply post with… > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > When was that first family photo taken? Because in that picture Karen is definitely fighting anorexia already. I don’t know the date, but it’s the 1977-1980 period judging by the hair and outfits. I had an authorial decision about what to do with that specific photograph - chronologically, the image comes later in the story, but story-wise, it was the best photograph to highlight the point I was making earlier, and I surely didn’t want to introduce the family dynamics 15 years after they started making an impact… so a decision was made to sacrifice a bit of accuracy to enhance the narrative. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > BTW, she said the most likely cause of Karen’s death was heart failure due to lack of potassium. It’s a common killer of anorexic women. Perhaps that in combination with too much ipecac pushed her heart over the edge. This is what I get for not checking primary sources on such a basic fact. The official ruling was heart failure, the Ipecac was a possibly contributing factor. Oh well, I am my own author, fact checker, and editor. All mistakes are mine, unless I can reasonably palm them off. Speaking of which… 😬 > [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > You write that “Richard… took it upon himself to write, compose, and produce his magnum opus, 1977’s _Passage_ …” > > At Allmusic, the [review of _Passage_](https://www.allmusic.com/album/passage-mw0000649957) says “there are no Richard Carpenter-authored songs.” > > If that’s the case, then what was it about _Passage_ that made it Richard’s magnum opus? Was it the idiosyncratic selection and arrangement of the songs? To the point above, this was sloppy research on my part - I misread my citation as saying that Richard didn’t _sing_ on any of the songs, and I also didn’t even bother to check out the track list to confirm the songwriting credits, assuming he wrote at least the “Interplanetary Craft” song. But, to your point, yes, he didn’t write any of the songs on this album. Completely blew that one. See above about author/fact-checker/editor. But he did produce and arrange the album, probably had decision-making authority on song selection, and while it may not have been his “Magnum Opus” (sorry, but I was _feeling_ it!), the album was a reflection of the artistic drift suffered by them in the late 1970s. (He says, gamely trying to save his argument. 😛 ) > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > BTW, there is a new [Carpenters](https://www.amazon.com/Carpenters-Musical-Mike-Cidoni-Lennox/dp/1648960723/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=carpenters&qid=1631063388&s=books&sr=1-1) book due to hit the shelves next month. This probably explains the _Times_ piece. Either a bit of promotion for the book, or a newspaper writer trying to jump in on something he sees coming. > [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > …diction so spot-on… Very true - you never had to rewind Karen saying “what was that last?” > [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > I have to mention Richard’s incredible arranging, piano playing and singing because the man doesn’t get enough credit. > [@scabpicker](#): > > But I love even _Passage_ . How could I love Hawkwind and not love that? Ok, I could forsake it, maybe if I wasn’t addicted to the sugary-sweet tones of the Carpenters already from my dad listening to them. But that had already happened, and I’d already heard Hawkwind by the time I heard it, so my fate was sealed. Glad we got some Richard stans in here. I feel I may have been a bit too rough on him as to build the ‘Emily Dickinson’ theme, so balance is definitely needed. Thanks! > [@Eonwe](#): > > That said, I feel like this is a decent place to mention that I have a friend who’s in a Carpenters tribute act, and who takes it all very seriously- she’s got a collection of Carpenters memorabilia and artifacts, and is a bit of an expert on all things Karen. Cool. If you see fit to send her the link, I would be interested in her reaction. If not, no big deal. 🙂 > [@panache45](#): > > I have always found it ironic that Karen considered herself “a drummer who sings”, much the same as Streisand considering herself “an actress who sings”. Is it common for singer/\_\_\_\_s to always put their singing second? Well, Karen didn’t want to be the front person for the act, so her calling herself a drummer first was her way of stating this. Barbara always dreamed of being a Broadway/movie star and preferred to market herself that way. So, I don’t know if it is common, but the two women did so for _very_ different psychological reasons - Karen wanting to shrink from the spotlight, Babs wanting every spotlight pointing towards her. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Given that, Superstar is the one and only true no other will do best Carpenters song. The fact that the version we all know was the first time she sang it just makes it magic. OK, so please, [watch this seven minute video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-odHG-HAsHw). It’s a young African-American woman who loves the [Luther Vandross](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiQ45S1aYC4) version of this song, has never heard Karen before… and in this reaction video, she completely loses it. Fascinating watching her compare the Luther V version to Karen. > [@Bullitt](#): > > My favorite is _For All We Know_ . Thanks for bringing this one up again as I wanted to say some more about it. For starters, I think the 2 things which make this the #1 in my book is: 1. No double-tracking of Karen’s voice 2. Minimal harmonies and flourishes, and those that are in the song _work_. I also dug up the original movie clip which featured this song. [It’s dated, but effective](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz4qKBUkTPc&t=27s). I don’t think the film version is strong enough to win an Oscar, but like I said, the Carpenters version was hitting the top of the charts during the Academy voting period. Lastly, the Carpenters would do the occasional “Reprise” on some of Karen’s ballads. The one for [For All We Know](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F1Oa_pek8g) has a more 1930s-40s period orchestration and is an interesting peek of Karen in an earlier era. > [@Chad\_Sudan](#): > > I didn’t read the paywalled _Times_ of London piece, but it couldn’t possibly measure up to what you’ve written here. Fascinating. I was moved to go back a couple times and re-read that paragraph on beauty and loss. Thank you! If someone does read the _Times_ piece, let me know - I’ll be interested in what it says. I also took the time to reach out to the author of the _Times_ article with a link here… > He doesn’t have an active Twitter account, so is likely craving any sort of attention… wait. Hi! Welcome to the Dope, Will! 😃 Ignore that last, please. 😛 > [@aceplace57](#): > > I read that Richard has remixed and tinkered with the old hits. The cds and digital downloads on Amazon have a lot of reviews complaining that it sounds different. Yes, this is a big issue with 60s and 70s songs, the overwhelming desire to _tinker_. To be fair, if Richard wants to give us three different versions of Karen singing _Rainy Days and Mondays_ in three different styles over the course of three differing decades, and I have access to all three, who are we to refuse this gift? > [@Cardigan](#): > > **JohnT** that was the best writing I’ve read in a long time (and I say that after having just finished reading about a half dozen recent articles in The Atlantic). Tombstone material! ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/22 "2021-09-08T23:45:54Z")
Fantastic writeup, @JohnT. Thank you. > [@JohnT](#): > > even Sonic Youth (?) have praised Karen’s work Kim Gordon is a big fan of Karen Carpenter, and stated in her book that she enjoys studying her and reading about her life. One of my favorite songs by Sonic Youth is about Karen Carpenter: [Tunic (Song For Karen)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reSOp1domrU). ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/23 "2021-09-08T23:48:55Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Kim Gordon is a big fan of Karen Carpenter, and stated in he book that she enjoys studying her and reading about her life. One of my favorite songs by Sonic Youth is about Karen Carpenter: [Tunic (Song For Karen)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reSOp1domrU). Sonic Youth also covered a Carpenters song: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Y21VecIIdBI/maxresdefault.jpg "Sonic Youth - Superstar") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y21VecIIdBI) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/24 "2021-09-09T00:42:32Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Sonic Youth also covered a Carpenters song This is from the tribute album _If I Were a Carpenter_, released in the mid-1990’s, full of covers of Carpenters songs by alternative bands. > **["If I Were A Carpenter": An Unlikely Tribute Album](https://www.culturesonar.com/if-i-were-a-carpenter-an-unlikely-tribute-album/)** > > Alternative acts from the 90s covering the songs of The Carpenters? You'd be surprised what's revealed on "If I Were A Carpenter." ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/25 "2021-09-09T01:14:10Z")
Oh wow, I completely forgot about “If I Were a Carpenter”. I remember buying that CD when it was current. I still have it. That said, I recall that listening to it simply made me want to hear some Carpenters. On a different note, regarding Karen’s bare midriff in the family photo…I would characterize that as the _opposite_ of common garb for a young woman suffering from anorexia nervosa. In my experience they typically wear bulky sweaters or sweatshirts in an effort to hide their bodies from others. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/26 "2021-09-09T11:05:02Z")
How good a drummer was Karen? I remember a joke from probably the mid-80s where some rock person had died and gone to hell. The devil told him that his punishment was to play in a band for eternity, which he of course thought was cool, until he was told Karen was the drummer. I’m guessing that was mostly a combination of misogyny and hard rockers hating on soft rock. I’ve read that she was excellent (one person called her the “best female drummer ever”) - but I have no ability to rate such things. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/27 "2021-09-09T12:25:47Z")
She was competent enough to play the drum part from ‘Rainy Days and Mondays’, but removed herself at times from session work because she knew the session drummer could get the job done faster, with fewer takes. (Time=money) To people who say she was their favorite drummer, I can’t speak to everyone and their taste, but…given that representation matters… each of us have probably listened to a hundred drummers better than Karen. But few, if any, approached her vocals. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/28 "2021-09-09T12:37:52Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > But few, if any, approached her vocals. No argument there. Probably wouldn’t have been fair if she also had legendary drum skills. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/29 "2021-09-09T13:05:14Z")
You may have missed this in the 5000 words I wrote, but I mentioned on the song “(They Long to Be) Close to You” that the session work was done by Hal Blaine. So even on Karen’s own songs she was working with drummers far better than she would ever be. > **[Hal Blaine](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Blaine)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > Hal Blaine (born Harold Simon Belsky; February 5, 1929 – March 11, 2019) was an American drummer and session musician, thought to be among the most recorded studio drummers in the music industry, claiming over 35,000 sessions and 6,000 singles. His drumming is featured on 150 US top 10 hits, 40 of which went to number one. > Born in Holyoke, Massachusetts, Blaine moved with his family to California in 1943 and began playing jazz and big band musi... ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/30 "2021-09-09T15:30:22Z")
Blaine also took over drums in the studio for another drummer who’s vocal skills were more impressive than his drumming: Dennis Wilson. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/31 "2021-09-09T15:48:30Z")
Btw, I remember that joke as well… ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/32 "2021-09-09T17:32:10Z")
I am not qualified to evaluate anyone’s drumming skills, but there are YouTube videos out there of Karen playing. [This link has several](https://wzlx.iheart.com/featured/chuck-nowlin/content/2021-02-03-wait-who-knew-karen-carpenter-was-a-kickass-drummer/), and there’s this mashup: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/H47v7yYRfjA/hqdefault.jpg "Karen Carpenter: Kickass Drummer (Drum Solos)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H47v7yYRfjA) ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2021, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/33 "2021-09-09T20:28:32Z")
I’m in no way qualified to rate her drumming, but it seemed impressive. I did note that a lot of the time there was another person drumming at the same time, so not sure how much of the sound was her (they would need a full-time drummer for when she was singing, of course). ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/34 "2021-09-10T06:41:10Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > ’m in no way qualified to rate her drumming, but it seemed impressive. As a bass player, rest assured that I would be _very_ happy to find I was playing with her on drums. ETA: I wouldn’t complain about Richard on keys, either. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/35 "2021-09-10T09:11:58Z")
My Best Friend married an older lady who looks remarkably like Karen, and hasn’t seemed to age in the 30+ years I’ve know her. What was once friendship has become morbid curiosity. He’s dead, and she just looks younger and younger. Is she a vampire? She does have a beautiful voice, but never heard her sing. Or seen her stand in front of a mirror… ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2021, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/36 "2021-09-10T15:01:04Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > He’s dead, and she just looks younger and younger. Is she a vampire? She does have a beautiful voice, but never heard her sing. Or seen her stand in front of a mirror… Maybe she IS Karen. She faked her death. Found the secret of eternal life. Death becomes her. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/37 "2021-09-11T04:10:14Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > “You can’t have that, but…if you’re an American citizen you are entitled to…a dream date (in kneepads) with Paul Williams.” It took me a google search to figure out what you were referring to, but now I have yet another reason to be vaguely creeped out by The Tubes. Thankya! 🤡 ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/38 "2021-09-11T18:37:06Z")
There are many first time reaction videos on you-tube to Karen’s singing and most of them are the same, in five seconds it’s WOW. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/39 "2021-09-11T19:24:11Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Thankya! Anytime! (As for the song, why Randy Mantooth? Did people once consider him sexy? All I see is that PIA John Gage, a doofus with a too-high self opinion.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281/40 "2021-09-11T21:13:16Z")
If we are talking about Randolph Mantooth the actor, he was considered pretty hot by the girls back in the day: > **[Randolph Mantooth](https://cultfaction.com/2018/12/16/heroes-of-cult-randolph-mantooth/)** > > Born on 19th September 1945 in Sacramento, California, Randolph Mantooth (born Randy DeRoy Mantooth), was the oldest of four children. Growing up he attended San Marcos High School and then Santa B… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-carpenters-a-re-appreciation/950281.md?page=3)