# The Casablanca Thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433 "2003-10-14T19:15:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/21 "2003-10-14T22:56:02Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d say that auteur filmmaking has always existed. It just kinda fell by the wayside during the “golden years” of hollywood. Actually, the French film critics through the “golden years” of Hollywood were the peak period for _auteur_ directors. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you might compare it to American History X. A Slick hollywood product with a weak story with engaging and manipulative filmmaking. Above average performances carry the film and cover up the fact that it is really mediocre material. > > GWTW was a lot more honest, IMHO. Honest? About what? No slicker movie came down the pike than _GWTW_. And if you consider _American History X_ a “slick Hollywood product”, than I think you may need to get out of French Morocco a bit more. I wouldn’t consider anything about _Casablanca_ mediocre–except the boiler plate melodrama framework. But that matters little (hey, _Romeo & Juliet_ is standard “boy meets girl” by those standards)–it’s all about the execution, and the screenplay alone brings the film far above a glib write-off as smoke-and-mirrors “manipulative filmmaking” (a redundant term if I’ve ever heard one). ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/22 "2003-10-14T22:57:44Z")
Casablanca is my all time favorite film. So many reasons - everything seems to work; the script, the casting, directing, sets, music, mood, lighting, attitude and the underlying message of good conquering evil, even on a small scale, even if it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. It is like a time capsule, where even the ending of the script was uncertain until the last moment - capturing the urgency and unknown of a real war that was still going on at the time. The film is my psychological comfort food, one of the few films I can watch over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/23 "2003-10-14T23:03:27Z")
> [@](#): > > And if you consider American History X a “slick Hollywood product”, than I think you may need to get out of French Morocco a bit more. American History X merits its own thread, but it is the very definition of sweet nothings, IMHO. GWTW was a more developed storyline, IMHO, and had a more nuanced love, once again IMHO. Slick, yes. But the lead characters had more depth. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/24 "2003-10-14T23:04:57Z")
Mke that “had” a more developed storyline. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/25 "2003-10-14T23:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Who wrote the screenplay for On the Waterfront? A quick look at the IMDB only provides writing credits for a series of articles about waterfront corruption. The film was uniquely Kazan’s. Uh, you may want to look up a guy named Budd Schulberg (Oscar-winner, Best Screenplay) and his experience with the HUAC before you state that _Waterfront_ was “uniquely” Kazan’s. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/26 "2003-10-14T23:07:29Z")
God, gotta lay off the cough syrup. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/27 "2003-10-14T23:15:51Z")
Hmm. Struggling to grasp your viewpoint, Ilsa: GWTW is the apex of cheap Hollywood schlock, if you ask me, while AHX, though certainly not 100% successful, took some chances and pushed some envelopes. You’d have to throw a pretty wide net around Hollywood, as a concept, to reel in AHX along with GWTW. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/28 "2003-10-14T23:28:38Z")
**ArchiveGuy** - The mise en scene of OTW was uniquely Kazan. **lis** - Schlock-ish; yes. Slick; yes. But I believe that the characters and the love of the leads was developed better than Casablanca. That is my only point. Casablance is, however, more sentimental. What chances taken and envelopes pushed had AHX? ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/29 "2003-10-14T23:30:25Z")
Ughh, “were” developed better. I have been writing nothing but scientific papers for months, and have forgotten my english usage rules.😃 ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/30 "2003-10-14T23:30:34Z")
Not to mention that calling an independent film–whose entire budget is half of what Jim Carrey pulls in per film–a “slick Hollywood” product strikes me as absurd. Pop quiz: What was the last “slick Hollywood” film with an ex-Nazi as a hero that talked about politics and race relations as pervasively as _AHX_? Call it naive, reductive, pretentious, or preachy, but “slick” (which usually suggests pandering to commercialism)? I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/31 "2003-10-14T23:32:11Z")
> [@](#): > > ArchiveGuy - The mise en scene of OTW was uniquely Kazan. Uh, you may be forgetting another Oscar-winner, cinematographyer Boris Kaufman. The great thing about film as a collaborative medium is that films are rarely “uniquely” anybody’s. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/32 "2003-10-14T23:40:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ilsa\_Lund \* > \*\*Ughh, “were” developed better. I have been writing nothing but scientific papers for months, and have forgotten my english usage rules.😃 \*\* No, you were right the first time: the subject is “love” not “leads.” In any case, the characters in GWTW seem much more paper cutouts to me than the characters in Casablanca, though not by terribly much. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/33 "2003-10-15T00:14:09Z")
“Characters” was the subject. Well, GWTW’s characters encounter a much wider range of experiences than do Casablanca’s, and exhibit a wider range of emotion. I think they were trying to make Ilsa an enigma, and succeeded only in making her a paper cutout, though an extremely effective (not to mention quite cute) one.😃 IMHO, Scarlett is more human than Ilsa. But my username is not Scarlett\_OHara. 😃 > [@](#): > > Call it naive, reductive, pretentious, or preachy, but “slick” (which usually suggests pandering to commercialism)? I wouldn’t. The _filmmaking_ was slick. Tony Kaye was a television commercial director, for God’s sake! Not to mention the ending was a non-sequitur copout. [/HIJACK RE: AHX] ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/34 "2003-10-15T00:18:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Not suggest that there’s any empirical ranking possible, but realistically, Rik, your statement can only ever be accurately phrased thus: \*IMHO Casablanca ranks as one of the top five best movies \*I’ve ever seen. > > I’m not suggesting that that people who’ve seen more movies than other peoples should dictate such things, I’m only saying that there are probably a _whole lotta_ movies out there that you haven’t seen to compare to _Casablanca_. \*\* Is there some purpose to this reply? It seems a bit condescending and more than a bit irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/35 "2003-10-15T01:39:46Z")
I know it sounded condescending, but I decided to preemptively apologize for sounding condescending would sound even more condescending, so I let it fly as is. My main point is this: as snobby and elitist as I may get about movies (and I do, I _do_), I never say anything like “the Xth greatest film ever made”; I only ever say things “my all-time favorite films” etc. It just brings me up short reading a thread like this, seeing a phrase like yours; I have an involuntary reaction of “Well, I doubt if he’s _seen_ every film ever made, so how can he make such a claim?” I guess I was just expressing a pet peeve of art discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/36 "2003-10-15T02:55:09Z")
Well, I just finished it on my new DVD, and I figure I’ll go over it again. Occasionally hammy in the extreme, it is standarf (though high-class) Warner fare for the time. I stand by my initial assesment of Curtiz’ direction: pedestrian and uninspired, I think better direction would have improved the film. Soft focus is way overused. Music harps way too much on the ‘As time goes by’ theme. The love story is ggod, though I like GWTW’s love triangle better (and Breakfast at Tiffany’s, more on that.). An excellent film altogether, though not a cinematic masterpiece. To answer my original question, a classic _American_ piece up with Frank Capra’s films. An enduring _classic_, to be sure. I couldn’t help but think that in many ways it is similar to Breakfast at Tiffany’s. I love that film beyond rational inquiry. Though the sum of the parts of Casblanca is greater than Tiffany’s, in some respects (emotions, acting, love) I think Tiffany’s tops it. I bring it up because of similar storylines, though it did not strike me until rewatching the film. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/37 "2003-10-15T02:56:27Z")
Please excuse my posting at 11 o’clock.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/38 "2003-10-15T10:52:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*I know it sounded condescending, but I decided to preemptively apologize for sounding condescending would sound even more condescending, so I let it fly as is. > > My main point is this: as snobby and elitist as I may get about movies (and I do, I _do_), I never say anything like “the Xth greatest film ever made”; I only ever say things “my all-time favorite films” etc. > > It just brings me up short reading a thread like this, seeing a phrase like yours; I have an involuntary reaction of “Well, I doubt if he’s _seen_ every film ever made, so how can he make such a claim?” > > I guess I was just expressing a pet peeve of art discussions. \*\* I see. I understand your feelings on the matter now. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/39 "2003-10-27T02:52:57Z")
I’m sorry to bump this (ok, I’m not) but I just realized, after watching with Roger Ebert’s commentary that the studio-system cheesiness, the stiffness, all adds to the movie’s charm and makes me, at least, appreciate it more. **lissener** where ya been? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433/40 "2003-10-27T03:28:46Z")
“cheesiness”? “stiffness”? Please explain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-casablanca-thread/207433.md?page=3)