# The Case Against God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850 "2006-08-30T23:00:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/21 "2006-08-31T17:16:15Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > There’s no such thing as democracy either. I looked at a lot of those countries that emphatically stated that they were democracies: the German Democratic Republic, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the Democratic Republic of Korea, and many others. There’s an obvious disconnect between the forms of government they actually utilize and this “democracy” that they espouse, so clearly democracy is not any good for anything since those lousy governments are the best that democracy’s ideals can inspire. > > [/allegory] > > Look, some experience was sufficiently common to be given names and yet sufficiently profound and rare to inspire awe and be considered special. You don’t have to know everything about it to understand that that’s the kind of thing that can make societal leadership nervous, so should it come as a surprise that the general tendency has been to take some representation of it, squeeze the life from it, take it to the taxidermist, and prop the stuffed and mounted corpse of it in a prominent place where you can say “it” is on the social leadership’s side? Where, any time the actual experience moves some people, you can point to the taxidermist-version and say “this is doing it right, yonder blaspheming heathens are uttering wrong phrases and not observing proper sacraments and are therefore doing anti-‘it’ things”? Where you can co-opt some of the energy of it when it moves people, saying “oh, so nice and so good that you are into ‘it’, we’re all about ‘it’, come over here where ‘it’ is happening”? > > (Of course you run the risk of attracting lots of idealistic visionary people to the organized corpse-version and then OOPS the dang thing starts to come back to life…but as long as you can keep a bureaucratic structure and some moldy oldies in charge to stomp out such sparks, you can usually disillusion them and they’ll leave) Wonder what this was in response to. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/22 "2006-08-31T17:28:09Z")
😕 Your OP is making a case against “God” based on the alleged/institutionalized-version behavior thereof as recounted in that Book, yes? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/23 "2006-08-31T17:31:02Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > 😕 > > Your OP is making a case against “God” based on the alleged/institutionalized-version behavior thereof as recounted in that Book, yes? I thought I was making a case based on an errant document authored (or authorized) by an inerrant author, and left errant for 2000 years. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/24 "2006-08-31T18:12:16Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > I thought I was making a case based on an errant document authored (or authorized) by an inerrant author, and left errant for 2000 years. What you were doing, whether you realized it or not, was _not_ making a case against God, but making a case against a particular understanding of the Bible (i.e. that God desires to spell everything out for humanity in a direct, inerrant, unambiguous way, and that the Bible is his means of doing so). Either that, or you were trotting out a variation of the old “God can’t exist because things aren’t the way they would be if I were God” argument. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/25 "2006-08-31T18:16:43Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > What you were doing, whether you realized it or not, was _not_ making a case against God, but making a case against a particular understanding of the Bible (i.e. that God desires to spell everything out for humanity in a direct, inerrant, unambiguous way, and that the Bible is his means of doing so). > > Either that, or you were trotting out a variation of the old “God can’t exist because things aren’t the way they would be if I were God” argument. I’m willing to discuss your rationales for a God schmucky enough to want to send his only begotten Son to this crummy old Earth, torture and kill him in order to send a clear message about his new covenant and all that stuff, but mess it up so badly that we spend the next 2000 years slaughtering each other in various confusions over what the message means. I’m up for that. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/26 "2006-08-31T18:33:37Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > I’m willing to discuss your rationales for a God schmucky enough to want to send his only begotten Son to this crummy old Earth, torture and kill him in order to send a clear message about his new covenant and all that stuff, but mess it up so badly that we spend the next 2000 years slaughtering each other in various confusions over what the message means. I’m up for that. Sounds like you have a bone to pick with fundamentalist Christianity, not the concept of God. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/27 "2006-08-31T18:35:43Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Sounds like you have a bone to pick with fundamentalist Christianity, not the concept of God. One thing at a time. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/28 "2006-08-31T18:57:26Z")
So what do you hope to accomplish with this thread? Convice the SDMB that the Bible has inconsistancies and factual errors? 'Cause I think we already knew that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/29 "2006-08-31T19:03:47Z")
Although the problems with this thread have been pointed out to the OP by dopers of every stripe, it seems he still can’t grasp that there is a problem or what the problem is. I suggest that we all pray for him, so that he may see the error of his ways. ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/30 "2006-08-31T19:37:12Z")
God didn’t write the Bible, directly or indirectly. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/31 "2006-08-31T22:19:56Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Although the problems with this thread have been pointed out to the OP by dopers of every stripe, it seems he still can’t grasp that there is a problem or what the problem is. > > I suggest that we all pray for him, so that he may see the error of his ways. Yeah, you’ve got a prayer with that. ---
**Author:** ![pragmatic55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@pragmatic55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pragmatic55)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/32 "2006-09-01T02:12:23Z")
The question should be an empirical case for case. If there were such a thing, we would no longer ‘believe in order that we may understand’. This is slang for: Have a bias and and produce hostility towards any evidence of the contrary while closing our minds to every facet that does not suit our prejuidices. If God could be logically derived we would all know he exists. It would be a truth that cannot be proved false. Such a thing doesn’t exist. That doesn’t mean He doesn’t exist, simply that the evidence doesn’t favor reason. ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/33 "2006-09-01T09:11:06Z")
Having read the OP, I’d say its a (weakish) case against (some forms of) Christianity. But as an atheist, I disbelieve in all gods equally. Thus, unless I have some special interest in an aspect of the conversation (like the Scientology and LDS threads I’ve been in recently) I’m not sure I need to make any sort of case against a diety. I’m not now nor have I ever been entirely comfortable with Christian bashing for the sake of it. All religion is easy to tear apart - a simple “prove it” will usually suffice - but it just seems mean spirited and not advancing my own beliefs to pick at just one religion. Look, I will call a Christian or anyone else on gross stupidity (and we had one of those in here recently, and I did call him on it) but just to start a thread entitled The Case Against God and then specifically go after one aspect of the worship of one god seems a bit weak, IMO. Its easy to attack Christianity because as atheists in western society, particularly in the US, we’re forced to deal with the consequences of that belief, be it lack of stem cell research or the 10 Commandments on the courthouse wall. It is far better to argue the specific issues than it is to attack the group as a whole, no matter how misguided you think they might be. Because, you know, they think we atheists are misguided as well, and a sizable proportion of them are afraid for us as fellow human beings, in their belief system, they just want us to to burn forever. Just sayin’. Cheers, G ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/34 "2006-09-01T09:16:34Z")
Preview is my friend Preview is my friend Preview… That should be “they just _don’t_ want us to to burn forever.” Cheers, G ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/35 "2006-09-01T11:14:21Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > Having read the OP, I’d say its a (weakish) case against (some forms of) Christianity. > > But as an atheist, I disbelieve in all gods equally. Right. I’ll make specific cases against the God of Maoris, Hopi indians, Presbyterians, and the Inuit later on because I’m getting everyone so confused by pointing some fundamental problems with the strange and obscure words “God” and the “Bible,” foolishly assuming that you share roughly the same understanding of those words that I do. Don’t want to overgeneralize here, or use specialized terminology bound to get everyone all discombobulated. My bad :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/36 "2006-09-01T12:03:05Z")
Delightful One of my favourites on SD is roughly paraphrased : - Only God knows - and He does not seem to want to tell us My position is that it is very possible that ‘God’ exists, certainly a higher intelligence, like a kid created us as a chemistry experiment Betrand Russell said if God existed then he would be a member of the Parliamentary Opposition I prefer to be an an-theist (check the spelling carefully), if God - or gods - exist then he/she/it/they is/are pretty shoddy operator(s) - I am damned if I am going to worship an incompetent deity. There is another problem with god-botherers, they might catch the idiot’s attention, like inviting a seriously incompetent mechanic to service your car. **I propose that all religions should be abolished, as they are potentially inviting ‘friendly fire’.** ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/37 "2006-09-01T12:07:07Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > Right. I’ll make specific cases against the God of Maoris, Hopi indians, Presbyterians, and the Inuit later on because I’m getting everyone so confused by pointing some fundamental problems with the strange and obscure words “God” and the “Bible,” foolishly assuming that you share roughly the same understanding of those words that I do. Don’t want to overgeneralize here, or use specialized terminology bound to get everyone all discombobulated. My bad :rolleyes: And possibly my bad for taking the title of your OP literally. Fair enough. To be fair, the SDMB automagically capitalises everything. Maybe the hamsters are gods? That said… You failed at what you were trying to do anyway. Assuming you mean capital G God, as in the God of the Christians (and not Jews or Muslims), that’s fine, but you go on to make a case against the Bible. Which, as was pointed out upthread, isn’t exactly news. What you’ve left open is the argument that fine, the Bible is flawed, but that doesn’t rule out the existance of the God of Abraham, and you find yourself round in circles going on about the Koran, the Torah, the Apocrypha, Zorastrianism, and on and on and on. Unless this just an opportunity to point and laugh at the Christians, in which case, knock yourself out, but there’s no debate there, either. What did you want to discuss, exactly? Cheers, G ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/38 "2006-09-01T12:38:30Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > What did you want to discuss, exactly? > G What part of “the entity known as God” or “the document known as the Bible” do you find so baffling? Do you truly not know what YOU mean by these terms? Why is so satisfying for you to try to catch me up in some circle of definitions (of plainly understood terminology) so you can infinitely postpone the discussion? Do you not realize how feeble this makes you appear? Define “God” however you like. If you’re intent on including the little statues worshipped by Polynesian islanders, then I will safely ignore you you as as a deliberate would-be obfuscator. Define the Bible however you like. If you want to point out that there are differences between the Hebrew Bible and those used by various Christian sects, I’ll ignore that too, since there are more than enough blatant lapses of common sense and textual consistency to go around. But for the purposes of this discussion, most Christians and Jews express some strong belief that “God” has something to do with the “Bible.” Some believe he actually wrote it, others believe its wisdom stems from God through human writers, very few devout Christians or Jews believe that the Bible is a fictional text devised by human beings alone, as I do. I could respect someone who claims the Bible asw a literally true document, at leastt o the extent of not denouncing that person as hypocritical. I think they’re totally batshit insane to believe in such childish claptrap, but I respect them for expressing their beliefs withoutwaffling or subterfuge. But cherry-pickers who find passages to accept and to reject, and who try to rationalize their repugnance at certain sections of the Bible by claiming that they don’t apply to modern life (or any of hundred other rationales) are simply pathetic fools. Well, that or manipulative and evil, but mainly weak-minded fools. You’ve got a text in front of you, Defend it. and prepare to be torn to pieces by any competent textual scholar, who will quickly demonstrate that your holy text is a work of fiction whose interpretations have shifted as science has provided an ever-growing body of laws that flatly contradict it. Hold it up as a work of truth that happens to contain misstatements, illogical constructions and out-and-out lies, and prepare to be laughed at. Force it down my throat, and compel me to acknowledge in my secular life, and prepare for the floodtide of vomit that will overwhelm you and drown you in a horrible sea for 40 days and 40 nights. Wait, don’t take that literally–when I say “drown in a sea of vomit for 40 days and 40 nights,” I mean “get all bombastic on your ass for a few seconds” (but I can get literal again, too, whenever I like, it all depends on my needs of the moment. My ways are mysterious and not to be easily understood.) One of my problems with “believers” is th ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/39 "2006-09-01T12:58:59Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > What part of “the entity known as God” or “the document known as the Bible” do you find so baffling? Do you truly not know what YOU mean by these terms? Why is so satisfying for you to try to catch me up in some circle of definitions (of plainly understood terminology) so you can infinitely postpone the discussion? Do you not realize how feeble this makes you appear? Just a piece of advice, take it as you want. But you’re coming off as an extremely defensive, argumentative jag off. That doesn’t necessarily facilitate debate. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2006, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850/40 "2006-09-01T13:03:59Z")
Scratch that, I read the rest of your post, and your not even interested in debate. Enjoy you’re rant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-god/370850.md?page=3)