# The case against Lee H. Oswald **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643 "2023-11-24T18:35:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/283 "2023-12-02T17:58:15Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/3): > > May I ask…when did you first read the Warren Report? Exactly when you did. I was looking over your shoulder the whole time. Now, do you care to address the OP, or are you just here to belittle the participants? > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/3): > > The world runs on conspiracies. And with that, your ability to contribute to this thread is laid bare. > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/3): > > The JFK thing is settled science, so far as I concerned. Oh, I have no doubt. I’m sure there are **lots** of things that are settled science as far as you is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/284 "2023-12-02T18:03:33Z")
Moderating: > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/3): > > May I ask…when did you first read the Warren Report? Are you coming in late, enjoying the arcana here? Good for you. > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/3): > > But don’t let that stop you from weaving fantastical pogo-stick impossibilities. You’re new around here, and you should read our rules: > [@New Rules for Great Debates and Elections – January 2020](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/new-rules-for-great-debates-and-elections-january-2020/845726): > > Moderation in Great Debates and Politics and Elections In general, Great Debates and Politics and Elections are the most contentious fora on the SDMB. Because of that, you’ll find that moderation is more active and prone to sanctioning posters. You can compare it to sitting at the holiday dinner next to the crazy uncle who can’t help being unpleasant. Please don’t be that guy. Be aware that most rules are not ‘bright line’. This is intentional on our part as we believe such encourages poor … One thing we expect is a tone of civility, which you are not engaging in. Stop immediately with the insults. We also expect good faith debate, meaning you will have a basis for your beliefs and will cite others to sources for them. Just spouting your world-weary commentary is not sufficient. If you are just here to stir the pot, this message board is not a good fit for you. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/285 "2023-12-02T18:06:28Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/3): > > For me the whole thing is silly, a frivolous discussion, over and done with. The Politburo tells us one can fly to the moon on a pogo stick, and the doubters are damned as conspiratologists. Ah, a Soviet dissident. Remember those days with Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov? Good times. > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/3): > > Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assassinated by a conspiracy, so was Reinhard Heydrich. Nobody disputes that. Then you come to the killings of Patrice Lumumba, Dag Hammarskjöld, the Duke of Kent, Lord Moyne, Folke Bernadotte, Larry McDonald, even Di & Dodi… I try not to go “I can’t believe you didn’t…” but I’ll make an exception here. _ **I can’t believe you left out the Abraham Lincoln Assassination.** _ I’m literally shaking my head. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/287 "2023-12-02T18:12:49Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/4): > > The OP’s digressive post I read through once. I’m not belittlng the participants, I’m saying that every jot and tittle of the JFK killing has been raked over and questioned for many years, and it’s a pointless, unending volley. Then don’t participate. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/289 "2023-12-02T18:14:40Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/4): > > Introduce new evidence that hasn’t been picked over for decades and then we can all have a serious discussion. Bring something resembling evidence for your position and then we can have a serious discussion. All you are offering is information-free gainsaying. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/290 "2023-12-02T18:16:27Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/4): > > ‘It was impossible for Oswald to fire those shots.’ Wait…do you think that’s a “point” in your favor? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/292 "2023-12-02T18:17:07Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/4): > > Introduce new evidence that hasn’t been picked over for decades and then we can all have a serious discussion. Well… That Jackie Kennedy accusing LBJ was new to me, care to find the source? Because, if it was the Daily Fail, you then started with really, really, bad sources. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/293 "2023-12-02T18:17:40Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/6): > > I could point you to plenty of citations, including mind-numbing spectographic research on the assassination, But you don’t. So why are you here? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/294 "2023-12-02T18:20:00Z")
> [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/994020/4): > > Point-Counter-Point: > ‘It was impossible for Oswald to fire those shots.’ > ‘Oh, but we can prove it COULD BE DONE! Here is our scenario!’ > Etc. Etc. It’s neither a point-counterpoint nor a scenario. The argument that it was impossible to fire the shots is utter garbage. It doesn’t require a scenario for him to be able to do it. All it requires is him to be an entirely average shot. Actually, all it requires is him to be a sub-average shot. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/295 "2023-12-02T18:22:32Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > It’s not only possible, but also not even remotely remarkable. Yep, the only thing remarkable about that set of shots is that Oswald missed once. It’s a 300 ft declination shot with the rifle sitting on a rest. It’s a seriously easy shot. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Actual record holding speed and accuracy with a bolt action rifle is substantially faster. [Mad minute](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute): Good god, no wonder their army held onto the bolt action for so long. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/296 "2023-12-02T18:27:03Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Yep, the only thing remarkable about that set of shots is that Oswald missed once. There were 3 shots. If you figure he was always aiming for a head shot, he missed _twice_. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/297 "2023-12-02T18:49:57Z")
Well, I was figuring he was using the iron sights and any hit on the president’s upper torso and head would get credit. After all, it’s a round suitable for medium sized game, so that would probably result in a successful assassination. If one was using that rifle to go for a head shot, I’d opt to use the scope that’s mounted. It was sighted off and shooting about 2 1/2 inches high and an inch to the right at that range. So, three shots to correct for that is totally reasonable, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/298 "2023-12-02T21:46:18Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Good god, no wonder their army held onto the bolt action for so long. Not to get too far off topic, but to at least get something useful out of the done to death “3 shots in 6 seconds with an old Italian bolt-action rifle” as if that was an extraordinary achievement conspiracy trope; the efficiency of the bolt-action rifle in delivering rapid, accurate, sustained fire at long ranges dramatically shifted how wars were going to be fought. The machine gun has passed into popular memory as the cause for the bloody trench stalemates in WWI, but the bolt-action rifle was going to do the same thing with or without the invention of the machine gun. Even [a bright Polish Jewish banker](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Gotlib_Bloch) saw this coming in 1898 when he wrote his treatise _Is War Now Impossible?_ I believe it was John Keegan who noted that the machine gun was ‘the concentrated essence of infantry’ in that one machine gun firing 600 round a minute was just concentrating what 30 riflemen were doing into one gun team. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2023, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/299 "2023-12-02T23:57:37Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > 3 shots in 6 seconds with an old Italian bolt-action rifle” Note: you’ll run into people who think that 3 shots in six seconds means a shot every two seconds, too, but anyone familiar with a [fencepost error](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-by-one_error) will realize that it’s one shot every three seconds. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/300 "2023-12-03T03:05:39Z")
Which is a pretty standard rhythm for bolt action infantry fire from a prone position. > Bang, cycle, aim, bang, cycle, aim, bang. Or more completely: > cycle, aim very carefully, [start timer], bang, cycle, aim, bang, cycle, aim, bang, [stop timer]. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/301 "2023-12-03T13:21:42Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I’d opt to use the scope that’s mounted. It was sighted off and shooting about 2 1/2 inches high and an inch to the right at that range. So, three shots to correct for that is totally reasonable, in my opinion. Who claims it was “sighted off” when Oswald was pulling the trigger, though? The rifle was initially discovered behind a pile of boxes. It doesn’t necessarily take a whole lot of banging around for a scoped rifle to lose its zero. My theory is Oswald simply chucked the rifle there after he performed the deed, and that screwed up the sighting. Or, it could have been rough-handled (or dropped) at any point along the way, going forward for weeks or even months before anu formal testing was done. For all we know the rifle and scope could have been zeroed in to be a tack driver on the day of the assassination itself. This is one of the “facts” that is always and ever repeated ad nauseam by the CT crowd. “Rifle was no good, it was cheap, the ammunition was from WWII, and the scope was misaligned!! No WAY could he have hit anything!” ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/302 "2023-12-03T14:25:20Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > It’s not only possible, but also not even remotely remarkable. Three shots in six seconds starts from when he pulled the trigger the first time, meaning he only needed to work the bolt and pull the trigger two more times in six seconds. That’s remarkably average firing speed for a bolt action rifle. I came across something amusing. The movie JFK makes the claim that you couldn’t do the whole 3 shots in 6 seconds thing, and provides a demonstration. In the clip, Kevin Costner (playing Jim Garrison) reports it as having taken “between 6 and 7 seconds” but _if you time the clip_, it’s no more than 6 seconds. (And, in my opinion, he pauses between shots 2 and 3). [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/2gaEkPaykJo/maxresdefault.jpg "JFK (2/7) Movie CLIP - Crossfire in Daley Plaza (1991) HD") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gaEkPaykJo) Incidentally, the 3 shots in 6 seconds is a myth. The Warren Commission (I know, I know) didn’t make that finding. > [@](#): > > Witnesses at the assassination scene said that the shots were fired within a few seconds, with the general estimate being 5 to 6 seconds.365 That approximation was most probably based on the earlier publicized reports that the first shot struck the President in the neck, the second wounded the Governor and the third shattered the President’s head, with the time span from the neck to the head shots on the President being approximately 5 seconds. As previously indicated, the time span between the shot entering the back of the President’s neck and the bullet which shattered his skull was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds. If the second shot missed, then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots. If either the first or third shots missed, then a minimum of 2.3 seconds (necessary to operate the rifle) must be added to the time span of the shots which hit, giving a minimum time of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for the three shots. If more than 2.3 seconds elapsed between a shot that missed and one that hit, then the time span would be correspondingly increased. > **[Warren Commission Report Chapter 3](https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-3.html#timespan)** > > Chapter 3: The Shots from the Texas School Book Depository Introduction The Witnesses Near the Depository On the Fifth Floor At the Triple Underpass The Presidential Automobile Expert Examination of Rifle, Cartridge Cases, and Bullet Fragments... (My emphasis) The best evidence is that the first shot missed. So Oswald had about 7 seconds for his 3 shots. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/303 "2023-12-03T14:57:39Z")
Strange that the first one missed. That one would be the easiest to aim. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/304 "2023-12-03T15:13:43Z")
> [@K364](#): > > That one would be the easiest to aim. I disagree. If the first shot misses, you have two more opportunities to correct your aim. And since the vehicle is traveling away from you, along a slight embankment, once you hit once it’s easy to hit again. Whereas, with the first shot you do not yet have a frame of reference. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2023, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/305 "2023-12-03T15:15:15Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Good god, no wonder their army held onto the bolt action for so long. I remember reading that when the German army had their first encounter with the BEF at the 1st battle of Mons in 1914, they thought that the British must have had light machine guns because the rate of fire was so high. But it was bolt-action rifles. I think it was in one of Keegan’s books. Will see if I can find it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643.md?page=16)