# The case against Lee H. Oswald **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643 "2023-11-24T18:35:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/61 "2023-11-25T12:08:04Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > comments by statesmen like Ike and Truman… I don’t know why I first read this as Ike and Tina Turner. With that out of the way, can anyone recommend a substantive book on this topic? mmm ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/62 "2023-11-25T12:16:47Z")
No, no, you’re on to something. It is absolutely within the realm of possibility that Ike and/or Tina Turner were deeply involved in the assassination, not least because the mob had access to them. As, presumably, did the FBI and the CIA. “Tina Turner” is not even her birth name, so the use of false identities was part of her training and she became a Swiss citizen: why? Presumably to avoid extradition for questioning about the assassination. Case closed! ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/63 "2023-11-25T12:22:36Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Conspiracy theorists are kind of like the people who want to prove that someone other than Shakespeare of Avon wrote the “Shakespeare” plays. They know the plays themselves in and out, and the works, and well as what is to be known or their personal candidate, but very little about Elizabethan England, or the literature thereof in general. Conspiracy thinking is a luxury I allow myself, sort of like rice pudding at Thanksgiving, for its rarity. I couldn’t live with myself if I subscribed to conspiracies willy-nilly, but I figure one or two small ones couldn’t really hurt me on special occasions as a treat. But I’m one of the most dogmatic, stubborn (and may I add, educated) people in the world when it comes to defending Bill Shakespeare’s honour. I have torn Shakespeare conspiracists to shreds the moment “Earl of Essex” appears on their drool-smeared lips, and I’ve enjoyed every minute of it. > [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Ike and Tina Turner. > > With that out of the way, can anyone recommend a substantive book on this topic? Ike and Tina? Sure–plenty of good books on that subject. Oh, assassination books? The most convincing I’ve read is MORTAL ERROR by a guy improbably named Bonar Menninger, which is more a “colossal fuckup” book than a conspiracy book, other than the conspiracies involved in the coverup. (A bit heavy on the ballistics for my taste, but very straightforward.) A terrific LHO book, though fictional in parts, is Mailer’s OSWALD’S TALE or DeLillo’s LIBRA. The standard non-conspiracy book is Gerald Posner’s CASE CLOSED, which purports to be a non-fiction version of the WC Report (as Woody Allen put it). ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/64 "2023-11-25T13:19:45Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > can anyone recommend a substantive book on this topic? Not a book, but here is a single web page that addresses and tries to account for the major “suspicious circumstances.” I found it persuasive and a great antidote to the lure of the rabbit hole. “[The Unofficial JFK Assassination FAQ](https://www.jfk-assassination.net/faq.txt)”; especially Section 9, “Myths and Facts of the Assassination” ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/65 "2023-11-25T13:20:41Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > can anyone recommend a substantive book on this topic? Vincent Bugliosi (who prosecuted Charles Manson) wrote a doorstop. > **[Reclaiming History](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reclaiming_History)** > > Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy is a book by attorney Vincent Bugliosi that analyzes the events surrounding the assassination of United States President John F. Kennedy, focusing on the lives of Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby. He drew from many sources, including the Warren Report. Bugliosi argues that the Warren Commission's conclusion that Lee Oswald acted alone in shooting Kennedy is correct. The book won the 2008 Edgar Award for the Best Fact Crime categor... ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/66 "2023-11-25T13:33:51Z")
This is good, thanks. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/67 "2023-11-25T13:53:16Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > The most convincing I’ve read is MORTAL ERROR by a guy improbably named Bonar Menninger, which is more a “colossal fuckup” book than a conspiracy book, other than the conspiracies involved in the coverup. (A bit heavy on the ballistics for my taste, but very straightforward.) This is one of the more absurd theories, in my opinion - that the fatal bullet was fired by a secret service agent in the motorcade, on accident. In 1963, many adult men (most?) had military experience from having served in WWII. If a man had been shot, at close range, in front of them, I’d think they’d have immediately recognized it. (Especially the other people in the motorcade itself) And, as we’ve endured so many stories of school shootings, we’ve come to understand just how mutilated a body shot by an automatic weapon at close range would get. It’s just fundamentally different than a sniper’s head shot. Moreover, I believe the theory is that the shooter was in front of Kennedy. The entire back of his head would have been blown off - not the front temple, as actually occurred. Ultimately, we have video of the shooting. Nobody shoots Kennedy from the motorcade. It’s _obvious_, at least to me. I’m not surprised you thought that book went heavy on ballistics: it had to be obscure, because your lying eyes would have told you otherwise. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/-AFQM9Qkeio/maxresdefault.jpg "Zapruder Film - Full") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AFQM9Qkeio) ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/68 "2023-11-25T14:06:54Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Incidentally, Hidell rhymes with Fidel (as in Castro). This is a completely unimportant side issue, but I’ll point it out anyway. I don’t think the two words rhyme. It’s a made-up name, so there is no “correct” pronunciation, but I guess most people would assume that Hidell is pronounced Hie-dell, with the first syllable rhyming with “pie”. But Fidel, as in Castro’s first name, is pronounced Fee-del, with the first syllable pronounced like the word “fee”. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/69 "2023-11-25T14:11:17Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Nobody shoots Kennedy from the motorcade. It’s _obvious_, at least to me. This is the beauty part, to me. Menninger’s thesis is simple, clean, well-documented (as far as I can tell–I’m far from a ballistics expert, though I have heard from some folks who’ve trained with weapons who tell me he makes sense), and self-contained, requiring no elaborate, far-reaching conspiracies to hold up for 60 years. A rookie Secret Service agent in the car behind JFK whipped out an AR-15 (which was immediately and very conveniently destroyed) the second he heard a shot fired, and in picking it up, inadvertently blew the fatal shot into JFK’s head, not even realizing himself that he’d set off the gun’s hair-trigger. The Secret Service, realizing their fuckup, destroyed the evidence and the secret remained closely held by those few officials whose careers would have been wrecked if it were known what had happened. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/70 "2023-11-25T14:28:51Z")
You described the bullet as “pristine”. Do you still believe that’s an accurate description? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/71 "2023-11-25T14:37:31Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > Menninger’s thesis is simple, clean, well-documented It’s not remotely “clean”. No eyewitnesses reported seeing the flash of an automatic rifle in the motorcade. Nobody spontaneously yelled out when it went off, and none of the pictures or footage of the incident shows it happening. And with reporters streaming around the scene, there’s no evidence of any weapon being secreted away, and no later evidence of any kind of it being destroyed or the incident being documented in any way. But we can _imagine_ it. So there’s that, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/72 "2023-11-25T15:17:47Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > There is a photo of the limo out there taken right after the assassination which clearly shows just how much further inboard and how much lower Connolly was compared to Kennedy. I’ve not seen a photo, but the wikipedia article on the assassination of Kennedy has these two drawings which show how slight differences in the seats mean the “magic bullet” critique doesn’t hold up. As you say, that critique assumes a certain seating arrangement; if that’s not correct, the “magic bullet” critique falls apart. [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Sbt_critics.jpg?20050706203216) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Sbt_critics.jpg?20050706203216) [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Sbt2.jpg?20050706204648) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Sbt2.jpg?20050706204648) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/73 "2023-11-25T18:23:35Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Something Oliver Stone kept grinding on was the fact that in the Marines, Oswald was a “marksman.” I’m not completely certain what that term meant in the marines in the 50s, but in the US army in the 1990s, it was the _lowest_ range of scores you could get when qualifying, while still qualifying. The highest was “expert,” and the middle was “sharpshooter.” A marksman could hit as few as 29 out of 40 pop-up targets and still qualify. Hit only 28, and you failed to qualify. Fortunately, the Marines kept pretty good records. A score of 200 on the range would have gotten you a qualification as a “sharpshooter.” > Like all Marines, Oswald was trained and tested in shooting. In December 1956, he scored 212, which was slightly above the requirements for the designation of [_sharpshooter_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_Qualification_Badge).[[20]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald#cite_note-Saturday-21) In May 1959 he scored 191, which reduced his rating to [_marksman_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_Qualification_Badge).[[20]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald#cite_note-Saturday-21)[[40]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald#cite_note-WCR-C4-42) > Oswald was [court-martialed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court-martialed) after he [accidentally shot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintentional_discharge_(firearms)) himself in the elbow with an unauthorized [.22 caliber](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_caliber) handgun. Okay, the guy wasn’t Annie Oakley, even on his best day. But, as has been frequently noted, the target was less than 100 yards away, and moving literally at walking speed. And even a score of 191 on a rifle range is pretty damn good. Give the shooter a stable platform (e.g., some boxes of books stacked up) and a good view (like out an open window) and a pretty damn good shooter has a pretty damn good chance of hitting the target. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/74 "2023-11-25T18:29:23Z")
Thanks for that-- I really had no idea what the term meant to the Marines in the 50s, just an inkling that it probably meant he was good enough to qualify, but not the best shot in his platoon. However, _the film continually used the word the way a **layperson** would_, someone highly skilled in precision use of firearms. Which is cheating. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/75 "2023-11-25T18:45:24Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Which is cheating. Oliver Stone? Say it ain’t so! ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/76 "2023-11-25T18:48:05Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Oliver Stone? > > Say it ain’t so! Well, I, for one, was SHOCKED! Shocked, I tell you! ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/77 "2023-11-25T18:55:44Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Okay, the guy wasn’t Annie Oakley, even on his best day. But, as has been frequently noted, the target was less than 100 yards away, and moving literally at walking speed. And even a score of 191 on a rifle range is pretty damn good. Give the shooter a stable platform (e.g., some boxes of books stacked up) and a good view (like out an open window) and a pretty damn good shooter has a pretty damn good chance of hitting the target. Just to add, in addition being walking speed the motion of the target was almost directly at him, with almost zero deflection. It was an extraordinarily easy shot to make, if anything the fact that Oswald missed one of his shots is indicative of sub-par shooting skills. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/78 "2023-11-25T19:01:41Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > if anything the fact that Oswald missed one of his shots is indicative of sub-par shooting skills. That was kind of my point. Most conspiracy theories have Oswald making the kill shot, but the “grassy knoll” shooter, and possibly a third shooter, making the shots that miss, and don’t bother them with spent shells on the floor where Oswald was. But more to the point, the head of the conspiracy would not choose a poor or mediocre shot to attempt the kill shot-- reinterpreting the word “marksman” lets the theorists have Oswald as a good candidate for the chosen shooter, before the deed is done. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/79 "2023-11-25T19:07:01Z")
Oh-- no one has brought it up yet, but a lot of theorists include Jack Ruby, and have him appointed to kill Oswald to keep him from talking. The best refutation of that I know of, backs up Ruby’s story that he killed Oswald on impulse. His dogs were in his car. You don’t leave your dogs in the car if there’s a pretty good chance you aren’t coming back, and apparently that was _really_ the case here, in that Ruby had a Koothrappaliesque attachment to his dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643/80 "2023-11-25T19:29:35Z")
Another small element that makes Oswald’s shooting less impressive is that the conspiratorialists trying to replicate the ‘amazing’ shooting performance of Oswald would tell a test shooter to make three shots within a head-and-back shaped area from Oswald’s distance, then start a stopwatch and tell them to start. If the shooter couldn’t do it, it was proof that Oswald couldn’t have done it either. But the subtlety here is that you need to start the stopwatch _after_ the first shot, which the shooter can set up for as long as he likes first, and then the shooter only had to make two more shots in the time window. Doing that, the shots become almost trivial for someone with shooting experience. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-against-lee-h-oswald/993643.md?page=5)