# The case for/against attacking pirate bases in Somalia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867 "2009-04-12T18:21:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/1 "2009-04-12T18:21:16Z")
[U.S. Naval Institute CEO: Hit the Pirates at Their Bases in Somalia](http://www.usni.org/forthemedia/PiracyUpdate.asp) > [@](#): > > “As long as we allow the pirates a sanctuary, a place where they know we won’t go - they will be encouraged to continue attacking vessels and holding them for ransom. The lawlessness of Somalia has turned the entire county into a safe haven. Pirates don’t live on the water, they live in Somalia. That’s where we need to get them,” Wilkerson said. > > \ > > During an April 8 “CNN Newsroom” segment with anchor Kyra Phillips, Wilkerson expressed his belief that the United States needs a new policy that focuses on confronting pirates at their bases of operation. > > “You have to take out the pirates where they live and give them no incentive to continue doing piracy … We have got to step up to the plate and recognize piracy will continue unless we take the initiative and stop it,” Wilkerson said. [The Overstated Threat](http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/story.asp?STORY_ID=1694) > [@](#): > > Overall, however, the consequences to maritime commerce are surprisingly minimal, though precise figures on the losses in commercial shipping are not available… A 2006 assessment of the risks of piracy indicated shipping industry losses were relatively small in relation to the total volume of ocean transports. The study IISS cites above asserted “truth be told, losses are so low that there is little incentive for the shipping industries even to make a serious collective effort to tackle it.” > > \ > > The Somalia example again illustrates the inefficacy of solely sea-based anti-piracy efforts. The Officer of Naval Intelligence reported in 2006 that Somalia’s Union of Islamic Courts (UIC) seized control of Harardhere, the coastal village at the center of piracy. The courts’ spokesmen asserted they were in full control of the village, the era of banditry and piracy was over, and the actions of pirates were unlawful, unacceptable, and un-Islamic. After locals were threatened with swift administration of Sharia law, piracy abruptly ceased off Harardhere—until Ethiopian forces pushed UIC elements from the region. It is ironic that Ethiopian military operations designed to oust the radical Islamist threat reintroduced an era of significant Somali piracy. > > \ > > Because the U.S. Navy lacks the resources to effectively accomplish even a fraction of its assigned missions, treating piracy for what it is—criminal activity—should lessen the demands on an already overtaxed American Fleet. Discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/2 "2009-04-12T20:34:31Z")
> [@](#): > > The case for/against attacking pirate bases in Somalia You mean _undefended, Third World villages_? With 99% of the people there _not pirates_? I’m **sure** you do. Mayhap you should re-think this. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/3 "2009-04-12T20:37:06Z")
No. Of _course_ what he means is to help stabilize the economy and government of Somolia so that rule of law will apply on shore there and not offer them a place to escape justice. Um. Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/4 "2009-04-12T20:40:21Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > You mean _undefended, Third World villages_? With 99% of the people there _not pirates_? > > I’m **sure** you do. > > Mayhap you should re-think this. I don’t mean anything. I merely posted an opinion that military resources should be used, and another opinion that military resources should not be used. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/5 "2009-04-12T20:44:11Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [U.S. Naval Institute CEO: Hit the Pirates at Their Bases in Somalia](http://www.usni.org/forthemedia/PiracyUpdate.asp) > > [The Overstated Threat](http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/story.asp?STORY_ID=1694) > Discuss. I say go in and crush them. On the theory that if unchecked, eventually they will do something which is a lot more than a nuisance. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/6 "2009-04-12T20:46:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I say go in and crush them. On the theory that if unchecked, eventually they will do something which is a lot more than a nuisance. And what of **Bosda** ’s point that most of the inhabitants are not pirates, and are basically victims of location? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/7 "2009-04-12T20:51:20Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > You mean _undefended, Third World villages_? With 99% of the people there _not pirates_? > > I’m **sure** you do. > > Mayhap you should re-think this. > **[NATO bombing of Yugoslavia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Allied_Force)** > > Wartime events > Aftermath > Aspects > **[Operation Deliberate Force](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deliberate_Force)** > > 1992 > 1993 > 1994 Bombing the hell out of cities in countries that can’t feasibly fight back seems to be easy enough. Take out the infrastructure of the country and your job is 90% done. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/8 "2009-04-12T20:56:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > [NATO bombing of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Allied_Force) > [Operation Deliberate Force - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deliberate_Force) > > Bombing the hell out of cities in countries that can’t feasibly fight back seems to be easy enough. Take out the infrastructure of the country and your job is 90% done. Somalia **has no infrastructure.** It has mud, on good days. Dust, otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/9 "2009-04-12T21:06:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > And what of **Bosda** ’s point that most of the inhabitants are not pirates, and are basically victims of location? I would do what I can to minimize death, injury, and property damage to non-pirates. However, I realize that any attack is likely to result in such things. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/10 "2009-04-12T21:08:13Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Somalia **has no infrastructure.** > > It has mud, on good days. > Dust, otherwise. _shrug_ Just take out everything with wheels. If they’re inland, they’re getting there somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/11 "2009-04-12T21:10:19Z")
I’m not convinced the best action is to go into mainland Somalia. We should start with some sort of international agreement or treaty that prohibits paying pirates any ransom money. Sure, a few states wouldn’t sign on but if we got most of Europe, the United States, the major Asian/Oceanic powers (India, China, Japana et cetera) then companies based out of those countries couldn’t legally pay ransom. It would be a huge deterrent to the pirates. Killing pirates is well and good, but keep in mind that in the age of sail piracy carried swift and certain death if you were apprehended, and lots of pirates were killed outright by the navies of the world in that era, but piracy still kept happening. For some people there is always going to be the willingness to risk death for financial gain. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/12 "2009-04-12T21:10:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > _shrug_ Just take out everything with wheels. If they’re inland, they’re getting there somehow. Oxcarts? Mostly, they walk. There **are** trucks & motor vehicles, usually so rusty they are the same color as the mud. Most of these people cannot afford shoes. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/13 "2009-04-12T21:10:32Z")
What constitutes a base for these guys? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/14 "2009-04-12T21:29:58Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > You mean _undefended, Third World villages_? With 99% of the people there _not pirates_? They seem to have a plentiful supply of AK-47s. So they are not undefended. The newscasts say that there are currently about 260 non-Somalis being held captive for ransom in Somalia. That requires a nontrivial expenditure of resources. Which makes me dubious about the “99%” figure. If they are well-enough organized to launch co-ordinated attacks against shipping, and collect multi-million-dollar ransoms, then they have _some_ infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/15 "2009-04-12T21:51:59Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What constitutes a base for these guys? Yeah, and how does one determine that a pirate is a pirate and not some ordinary citizen living onshore? And just because you see a bunch of black people on a fishing boat doesn’t mean they are pirates either, so you can’t just shoot on sight, I suppose. If you basically have to wait until a small boat of pirates intentions are clear, it’s probably already too late and the grappling hooks are already affixed. Either arm the cargo vessels or like someone upthread said, create a multinational agreement that no ransoms will be paid anymore, not ever. Or both. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/16 "2009-04-12T23:28:47Z")
Hmmm. Population of Somalia about 9.8 million. Number of individuals involved in piracy? Maybe a few thousand? Definitely you are right. 99% not pirates is a bad figure. More like 99.999%. Oh yes. Destroying what infrastructure they have will be [very effective.](http://www.voanews.com/english/Africa/2009-04-10-voa36.cfm):rolleyes: > [@](#): > > “Fundamentally, the piracy problem off the Somali coast arises out of the fundamental problem of statelessness on shore. There’s not been an effective Somali government since 1991. So, without effective governing on shore you’re going to have opportunities for criminals to engage in their enterprises with impunity,” he says. However, as that same expert continues, it does make sense to go in and pursue the ringleaders where and when you can. > [@](#): > > … We even know where the leaders literally live because they’ve built huge mansions that were put up in the last 18 months because of the piracy ransoms and revenues they gained," he says. > > He says four UN Security Council resolutions and agreements with the interim Somali government allow the use of force. “If we don’t root out these nests of piracy or at least send a very strong signal, we will end up telegraphing is a very strong signal of weakness,” he says. > > Pham says that any military strikes against Somali pirates can be very selective, such as destroying the pirate mother ships that launch speedboats or destroying the mansions built by the pirate leaders. He says before the mansions are destroyed, a warning should be issued telling occupants to leave, as Israel does in the Gaza Strip. Yes, that sort of makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/17 "2009-04-12T23:30:31Z")
The OP’s second link seems to say it’s just not that big of a deal right now, but also points out the effectiveness of directly military/police action – which leads me to believe they’re not so much anti-force as much as “wait until the finances justify it”. Matter of time, maybe? > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > And what of **Bosda** ’s point that most of the inhabitants are not pirates, and are basically victims of location? Are you kidding? They’re poor. They’re different. They’re in a foreign country. And they’re attacking our boats, the family of the people attacking our boats, or supporting/shielding/hiding/in the same town as the people attacking our boats. Who’s gonna give a damn?! If military action takes place, you can bet the Somali bodycount is going to be nothing more than a ticker on some bleeding-heart website while a few American/Coalition soldiers become the shining heroes of international blockbuster Black Hawk Down 2. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/18 "2009-04-12T23:57:13Z")
How the hell do you bomb their enclaves without killing the innocent? How are you going to convince the rest of the world to go along? How do you determine who is a pirate and who is not? Or are you willing to sacrifice the lives of hundreds or thousands of innocents? Face it, to fix the problem you will need boots and truckloads of money on the ground, a long-term commitment and local support. Otherwise you will just be butchers, worse than the pirates themselves. Two wrongs don’t make a right. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/19 "2009-04-13T00:03:47Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > How the hell do you bomb their enclaves without killing the innocent? How are you going to convince the rest of the world to go along? How do you determine who is a pirate and who is not? > > Or are you willing to sacrifice the lives of hundreds or thousands of innocents? > > Face it, to fix the problem you will need boots and truckloads of money on the ground, a long-term commitment and local support. Otherwise you will just be butchers, worse than the pirates themselves. > > Two wrongs don’t make a right. Yeah. I suppose this may end up boiling down to how much stock we put into our intelligence. If we _know beyond a reasonable doubt_ that there are pirate strongholds/mansions/ports/hiding places, etc and _exactly where they are_, then I would be OK bombing them on a limited (yet effective) basis. You’re still going to have some civilian casualties but in that scenario the good could potentially outweigh the bad. I’m in fact in total opposition to putting US ground troops into Somalia. What a nightmare that could be. And where are they going to come from anyway? Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867/20 "2009-04-13T00:07:36Z")
Just to throw another complication into the mix, remember that there are more than 200 hostages being held on the beach. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-against-attacking-pirate-bases-in-somalia/492867.md?page=2)