# The case for Hillary Clinton 2020
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [November 24, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607 "2017-11-24T17:43:07Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/61 "2017-11-25T16:05:42Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> Yes, they won. Is that acceptable to you? Do you want to live in an environment where elections are won by the most effective propagandists? The only way to keep them from winning, now or in the future, is \*not \*to accept it.
The “now” ship has sailed, after dumping its sewage. As for the future, if Hillary runs in 2020, I will vote for her again, as I did in 2016. And she will almost certainly lose again, as she did in 2016. Then we can refuse to accept that, and see where that gets us.
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### Author:  [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/62 "2017-11-25T16:18:59Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> Trump succeeded into making these “debates” into entertainment, an amusing populist spectacle. I don’t see how anyone can look at a campaign cycle that lasted for 15 months and involved 17 competitors and conclude that the result would have been different if only Bernie Sanders had won more Democratic primaries.
>
> I think someone like Biden might have been more successful than Clinton, but what would they leave us with? A barely elected Democratic president facing a united republican, obstructionist congress, which is what voters keep giving us. Until we recognize that voter ignorance is the problem, the problem will get only worse.
Are you suggesting that America is better off with what we have today?
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/63 "2017-11-25T16:23:01Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#):
>
> I see the same thing in the efforts to blame Hillary for losing to Trump. Republicans want to portray themselves as some unstoppable, unquestionable machine. They weren’t acting, just reacting to economic uncertainty, or challenges to the established order, or lack of respect from the coastal elites, or whatever. That way, nothing can ever be their fault.
>
> I won’t buy into that. People have choices in what they do, even Republicans. They chose to put Trump forward as their nominee. They voted for him. If he accomplishes anything positive they’ll take the credit. If he fucks up, they’re the ones who deserve the blame.
>
> Now, I hope Democrats will learn what lessons they can from the last election. But the blame for Trump (if, indeed, you think blame is deserved) belongs to Trump and those who voted for him.
I don’t blame Hillary for Trump voters. I blame Hillary for failing to inspire traditional Dem and Indy voters, in the face of the alternative.
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### Author:  [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/64 "2017-11-25T16:24:08Z")
Clinton’s biggest mistake was treating Sanders with the ultimate kid gloves. She knew she had the votes in the long run, and probably didn’t expect Sanders to drag it out even past the primary season. I still wonder how much the Russians were involved, it takes a strong stomach to read the anti-Clinton vehemence on Daily Kos and the Bernie sub-Reddit. In an election this close, there’s plenty of blame to go around. But, I think the #1 reason is Obama, left leaning voters staying home, voting 3rd party, or doing a pointless write in. I also think the last minute Comey letter caused a lot of voters to throw their hands up in disgust, they may not have wanted Trump but they didn’t want years of non-stop news about emails either.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/65 "2017-11-25T16:25:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> It is fair to point out that Sanders wasn’t subject to the constant attacks from the lie machine, like Clinton was. **But I honestly believe that he would have been less vulnerable to such attacks. What could they say about him that he wasn’t already saying about himself? That he’s a socialist? Well, yeah, and he’s proud of it.**
>
> And yes, Sanders was de facto eliminated after Super Tuesday. But he still did a heck of a lot better than you’d expect from an insurgent who doesn’t even label himself as a member of the party. Prior to 2016, can you think of any such campaign that had comparable success? The closest I can think of is Perot.
Are you under the impression that that fact would not have been an adequate shibboleth with which to terrorize the electorate into actually giving the POPULAR vote to the America-hating fuckstick?
During the primary season, my daughter was insistent that it would not be; that the electorate would not be so easily manipulated by scary boogie-man bullshit.
But, oh, look. The very same electorate that was supposedly too intelligent to fall for that crap went and handed the Presidency to a candidate who patently hates America, and everything which it ostensibly stands for on its best day.
And this was as plain to see in the months leading up to July 2016 as it is today.
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### Author:  [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/66 "2017-11-25T16:53:07Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> Until we recognize that voter ignorance is the problem, the problem will get only worse.
I love this.
If your side wins, turn up the smug. If your side loses, turn up the smug to 11.
:rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/67 "2017-11-25T17:12:14Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#):
>
> I love this.
>
> If your side wins, turn up the smug. If your side loses, turn up the smug to 11.
>
> :rolleyes:
It’s not smug; it’s plain truth that has been spoken. The American voters are repeatedly voting against their own interests out of ignorance and anger. They’re perpetually hoping to send a message and they end up just screwing themselves even worse. They’re voting for people who are hostile to democracy and hostile to a society that is equitable and based on the rule of law. There’s nothing smug about this. Depressing and shocking are probably better adjectives. I get that people don’t like being told that they’re wrong, but pointing out that their voting behavior is dumb and destructive in the long term isn’t being smug.
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### Author:  [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/68 "2017-11-25T18:14:11Z")
“We followed you before, and you took us down the path to defeat!”-Everett Dirksen to Thomas Dewey
“Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results.”-Attributed (probably falsely) to Albert Einstein
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### Author:  [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/69 "2017-11-25T18:38:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> It is fair to point out that Sanders wasn’t subject to the constant attacks from the lie machine, like Clinton was. But I honestly believe that he would have been less vulnerable to such attacks. What could they say about him that he wasn’t already saying about himself? That he’s a socialist? Well, yeah, and he’s proud of it.
That he was a Communist\*. That his wife had sketchy financial activities. That he refused to release his tax returns. Those are only a few, trust me they would have made shit up.
- How hard would it be for the _Russians_ to make a Communist Party card with Bernies name on it?
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### Author:  [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/70 "2017-11-25T19:22:12Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> It’s not smug; it’s plain truth that has been spoken. The American voters are repeatedly voting against their own interests out of ignorance and anger…
>
> … I get that people don’t like being told that they’re wrong, but pointing out that their voting behavior is dumb and destructive in the long term isn’t being smug.
How do _you know_ what American voters own self-interests are? 😕 You cast your vote, they cast theirs. That’s how it works.
The only thing you see to be pointing out is that their voting behavior is dumb and destructive _to you._
You lost. Get over it! 😃
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### Author:  [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/71 "2017-11-25T19:30:48Z")
The last time a major party candidate lost a presidential election, and then got re-nominated, was Richard Nixon. The last time a \*Democrat \*got renominated after losing was Adlai Stevenson. He lost again. I don’t think it’s going to be happening again any time soon.
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### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/72 "2017-11-25T19:37:28Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#):
>
> How do _you know_ what American voters own self-interests are? 😕
How about from what they _say_ they are voting for?
If someone tells me that good healthcare is their most important priority, but then they vote for the ebola virus, I can say they seem to be voting against their own self-interest.
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### Author:  [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/73 "2017-11-25T20:13:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> That he was a Communist\*. That his wife had sketchy financial activities. That he refused to release his tax returns. Those are only a few, trust me they would have made shit up.
>
> - How hard would it be for the _Russians_ to make a Communist Party card with Bernies name on it?
Well apparently you can not release your tax returns ever and still become president.
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### Author:  [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/74 "2017-11-25T21:30:07Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> The main thing that prevents me from holding Trump voters in contempt is reminding myself that Hillary was the alternative. Sure, I thought she was the lesser evil, but I can’t bring myself to blame some people for thinking otherwise.
>
> She was uninspiring in 2016. In 2020 she would bring The Stink of Failure to the table. She had her shot (s), and now it is time for her to step aside. Which, honestly, I think she has already done.
Reminds me of some random comment section of a recent Hillary news story…
Hillary…“the evil of two lessers”
Yep, that sums it up.
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/75 "2017-11-25T22:08:02Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#):
>
> The blame for Trump belongs to Trump and the people who supported him and voted for him.
Not just them. The blame also extends to those who \*could \*have worked and voted for the only viable alternative, and chose not to.
The blame continues to extend to those members of that group who are \*continuing \*to place the blame on that alternative instead of accepting some damn responsibility for their own decisions and their effects on us all. That means they’re at risk of doing something equally frivolous (at best, and it gets a whole lot worse) in 2020, with equally tragic results.
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### Author:  [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)
#### Post date: [November 25, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/76 "2017-11-25T22:36:25Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> Not just them. The blame also extends to those who \*could \*have worked and voted for the only viable alternative, and chose not to.
I don’t regret not working for Huntsman, because I don’t like to waste my time.
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/77 "2017-11-26T01:09:22Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#):
>
> Nader. Anderson. Wallace. There’s one every few cycles. It’s part of the system. And they typically give us Republican wins.
Anderson _was_ a Republican.
He was arguably running against _two_ crackpot Southern Democrats.
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### Author:  [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2017, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/78 "2017-11-26T02:38:12Z")
Anderson may have been a Republican, but his appeal was primarily to Democrats who bought the arguments against Carter but who also viewed Reagan as an unacceptable alternative. (I would point out that there was no state where Anderson’s votes would have swung the state to Carter.)
And you left out Perot.
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### Author:  [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2017, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/79 "2017-11-26T07:57:02Z")
> [@asahi](#):
>
> It’s not smug; it’s plain truth that has been spoken. The American voters are repeatedly voting against their own interests out of ignorance and anger. They’re perpetually hoping to send a message and they end up just screwing themselves even worse. They’re voting for people who are hostile to democracy and hostile to a society that is equitable and based on the rule of law. There’s nothing smug about this. Depressing and shocking are probably better adjectives. I get that people don’t like being told that they’re wrong, but pointing out that their voting behavior is dumb and destructive in the long term isn’t being smug.
People are also voting against attitudes they don’t like. You have to consider how to sell your message. Condescension doesn’t work.
There’s actually danger of a split within the Democratic Party due to Sander’s supporters and Clinton’s supporters blaming each other. Wounding people’s pride is counterproductive.
---
### Author:  [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)
#### Post date: [November 26, 2017, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-for-hillary-clinton-2020/802607/80 "2017-11-26T08:40:06Z")
That article is spot on. For the first four words.
“Here’s your leftover turkey,” that is.
The rest is deluded nonsense. First, if we’re to accept the premise that sexism was indeed a factor that contributed to Hillary’s loss (and I’m not convinced this is true, but let’s assume that it is,) then logically the Democrats should nominate a man, not another woman.
I heard a lot of people saying, after the election, “this proves that America is too sexist to elect a female president.” Then these same people talked about nominating Elizabeth Warren in 2020. So they want to lose again?
Whoever the Democratic candidate is, should have absolutely the fewest possible weak points. If being female is a weak point, then the candidate shouldn’t be female. It sucks that sexism exists, but the Democrats should be concentrating on MAKING IT SO WE DON’T HAVE EIGHT YEARS OF DONALD TRUMP, not making a point about sexism.
The popular vote isn’t what wins the presidency. It just isn’t. The fact that Hillary won the popular vote just means that a lot of people in California and the East Coast are Democrats. Successful candidates campaign to win the electoral vote, not the popular vote. I have to give Donald Trump credit for this one thing: he campaigned his ass off in the Midwest and the Rust Belt, flying all over the place giving rally after rally after rally, day after day, week after week. He truly did put in the effort on that campaign trail. Also, his choice of Pence as VP was very smart. It shored up Evangelical voters, the people who would have preferred Ted Cruz; Pence on the ticket helped them put their trust in Trump. What did Tim Kaine do to help Hillary? The guy brought nothing to the table. He was a bland white guy who nobody cared about.
Personally, going into the election, Jim Webb was my guy. I was excited as hell about him when he first announced his candidacy. I thought, on paper, this guy is the clear Trump-killer. He’s a fucking Marine Infantryman; he’s pro-gun; those two things alone would have meant so much in bringing more conservative-leaning voters to vote D. I thought, “all he needs to do is choose a charismatic running mate who is a minority, female, or both, and they’ll squash Trump like the pile of shit that he is.” Then came the first debate and I was shocked and horrified to see Webb’s absolutely awful performance. “Well, that’s that.” I still maintain that if Webb had the right coaching, preparation, and campaign management, he probably could have done a lot better.
I knew Hillary was going to lose. I was disappointed, but not surprised, when she did. She ran a shit campaign. She deserves the loss. Now she needs to go the fuck away.
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