# The case of atheist leader Ellenbeth Wachs: opinions? Info? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 28, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564 "2012-06-28T10:50:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bamboo\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@Bamboo\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bamboo_Boy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/1 "2012-06-28T10:50:54Z")
I’m not sure this qualifies as “mundane”, but I didn’t know where else to post this. I’m just wondering about this case- what really went down.The charges seem pretty trumped up. Clearly there’s spin going on all over the place. First I read this: ELLEN WACHS:

Chucked out of the Florida Atheists for being a drunk and accused in court of making loud sexual noises to children in the street. She admitted guilt on a few accounts of improper behaviour, some misappropriation of funds was on top of the whole grubby Wachs embarrassing spectacle.

She was a lush and it was inappropriate for her to head the so called sos group. A group which through Wach’s unprofessional drunken manner failed to ever be recognized by the authorities as a viable alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous. It appeared on my FB wall, and is from this group: > **[Iranian anti-theists](https://www.facebook.com/Antitheists)** > > Iranian anti-theists. 1 like. Blogger Then I read this: > **[Examiner is back - Examiner.com](https://examiner.com)** > > Examiner.com is the go-to source for millions of people who want to know what's happening in their city. And we're still growing! and then this: [http://www.theledger.com/article/20110825/NEWS/110829629?p=1&tc=pg](http://www.theledger.com/article/20110825/NEWS/110829629?p=1&tc=pg) She (apparently it’s really her, I guess, I don’t know) chimes in in the comments on the last link and gets support all around from people who seem to know her personally. Not sure what to make of it all. The support does seems pretty unanimous, though. Anyone have anymore inside (or otherwise) information about this? I have never even heard of this person before that quip appeared on my wall. Don’t have a very big dog in this fight, so maybe it IS MPSIMS after all. 🙂 Thanks in advance, BB ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/2 "2012-06-28T12:09:36Z")
Based on a couple of articles from more [legitimate](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/25/us/25athiest.html) [news](http://www.theledger.com/article/20111024/news/111029620?p=2&tc=pg) sources, it sounds like Ms. Wachs has behavioral problems and that she has a problem getting along with other people, such as her neighbors. Based on the articles, she does seem pretty abrasive. That being said, some of the charges filed against her are he-said-she-said stuff, or, in the case of using the term “Esquire”, relatively trivial. Perhaps the sheriff was targeting her for her lawsuits, or perhaps not. Those kinds of claims are difficult to prove, and based on her overall behavior, are hard to take seriously. Finally, the courts have [consistently](http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2007/10/03/0615474.pdf) [held](http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=5354420194444549436&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) that Alcoholics Anonymous can’t be the only option for people who are ordered to attend a self-help program. It is, however, legal for courts and parole/probation officers to require _some_ program, including SOS, as a condition for parole, driving privileges, or what-have-you. So that part of your post is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/3 "2012-06-28T15:44:25Z")
She may not be a nice person, but it sounds like a lot of Bullshit from the Sheriff. Retired lawyers can continue to use ‘esquire’ after their names. Retiring from medicine doesn’t mean you go from Dr. to Mr. The felony sex charge seems way over the top charge for what was described, and whoever allowed the sheriff to search her place after that needs more disbarring more than she does. I read the FB linked comments from the OP, and while I don’t particularly care for the woman I agree with her supporters more than her detractors - who seems to pile a load of strawman arguments about atheists, and harping on a lot of the letter of the law. ---
**Author:** ![EllenBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@EllenBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllenBeth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/4 "2012-07-04T02:41:23Z")
So, care to go the source for the facts? You are basing I am not a nice person on what premise? The neighbor’s account? You do realize that he was the one that wanted me in jail? I was not thrown out of Atheists of Florida for being a drunk. I didn’t admit guilt to any crime. To the contrary, the charges were dismissed. The man that runs that group has a grudge against me because he and I got into a debate about the usefulness of Alcoholics Anonymous and he got very defensive. I have been sober for 27 years. Where he is getting this nonsense about my “drunken” behavior is ridiculous. Even people here that dont like me wouldn’t say that because it is an unsupportable allegation. He has been holding quite the grudge obviously. He cannot defame me this terribly though. I will NOT be a nice person. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/5 "2012-07-04T02:54:33Z")
> [@EllenBeth](#): > > I will NOT be a nice person. You’ll fit right in here then… ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/6 "2012-07-04T03:14:46Z")
> [@EllenBeth](#): > > So, care to go the source for the facts? > You are basing I am not a nice person on what premise? Welcome to the forum. I did say you _may_ not be a nice person. It doesn’t really matter what my opinion of you is. More important is that you seem to have been handed a rather raw deal… Can you explain on what basis the sheriff or judge used to get warrant to search your home because of some noises? That is quite a disconnect to me. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/7 "2012-07-04T17:38:48Z")
> [@EllenBeth](#): > > I was not thrown out of Atheists of Florida for being a drunk. According to one link, you were kicked out “for seriously obstructing the organization’s business, misappropriating the organization’s name, misappropriating the organization’s funds, and acting in a way that discredits the organization.” > [@](#): > > I didn’t admit guilt to any crime. To the contrary, the charges were dismissed. That doesn’t seem to be exactly correct - > [@](#): > > Wachs pleaded no contest to a misdemeanor charge of possessing drug paraphernalia and prosecutors dropped a misdemeanor charge of possessing marijuana. > > Polk County Judge Barry Bennett agreed to withhold a formal finding of guilt, meaning Wachs has not been convicted of any crime. Wachs also had to pay about $820 in fines, court costs and Sheriff’s Office investigative costs. > [@](#): > > I have been sober for 27 years. If you have been sober for 27 years, why did you have marijuana in your safe? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![EllenBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@EllenBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllenBeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/8 "2012-07-05T00:26:57Z")
You are mixing up different situations. The failed coup at the organization had nothing to do with the criminal case. I have a pending defamation case against the former board members for throwing those ridiculous paste and cut nonsense charges at me. As for the marijuana charge, that was also dismissed. If you read carefully, I plead no contest to a paraphernalia charge. I did so because it was the easiest way to end this with no formal finding of guilt. The marijuana was not mine. But that is irrelevant to being sober. ---
**Author:** ![EllenBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@EllenBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllenBeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/9 "2012-07-05T00:44:41Z")
As for the basis of the warrant that was used to search my house, You can read the warrant yourself. [http://www.polklawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/wachs-search-warrant-docs.pdf](http://www.polklawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/wachs-search-warrant-docs.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/10 "2012-07-05T16:34:05Z")
Well, the facts as laid out in the warrant certainly support a finding of probable cause to believe that the unauthorized practice of law was being committed. I take it, however, that those charges were not pursued following the search and seizure executed at the residence? Also: assuming the facts related in the affidavit concerning the meeting with council officials were substantially correct, can you explain why their invocation practice is not protected under _Marsh v. Chambers_? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/11 "2012-07-05T16:37:15Z")
“Making loud sexual noises to children in the street”? How, and what would that even sound like? I hadn’t heard of this case, but now I’m quite curious about it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/12 "2012-07-05T16:48:49Z")
Playing a bass with a wah-wah pedal, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/13 "2012-07-05T16:58:34Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > “Making loud sexual noises to children in the street”? How, and what would that even sound like? I hadn’t heard of this case, but now I’m quite curious about it. Reenacting the “When Harry Met Sally” deli scene? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/14 "2012-07-05T17:00:44Z")
> [@EllenBeth](#): > > The marijuana was not mine. But that is irrelevant to being sober. You were holding it for a friend, in a safe? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/15 "2012-07-05T17:09:51Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > You were holding it for a friend, in a safe? :dubious: “I learned it by watching YOU!” ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/16 "2012-07-05T17:13:16Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > “I learned it by watching YOU!” “At least he’s using good beans.” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/17 "2012-07-05T17:15:47Z")
You know, up until 9 years ago, I had been a pretty serious pothead for 25 years. Not once in that entire time had I ever encountered a non-user holding pot for someone else. But regardless of that, if you had it, it’s yours. Just as if you had stolen goods in your house. You’re the one in possession. “I’m just hanging onto that stereo for a friend” doesn’t count for jack in court. The crime isn’t OWNERSHIP. It’s POSSESSION. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/18 "2012-07-05T17:32:57Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > You know, up until 9 years ago, I had been a pretty serious pothead for 25 years. > > Not once in that entire time had I ever encountered a non-user holding pot for someone else. On the other hand, I knew several people in high school who got caught with pot, and all of them told their parents they were holding it for someone else. Not sure whether any of the parents actually believed it. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/19 "2012-07-05T17:49:57Z")
Why Florida? Why is it always Florida? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564/20 "2012-07-05T17:54:08Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > On the other hand, I knew several people in high school who got caught with pot, and all of them told their parents they were holding it for someone else. Oh of course. It’s the cry of the guilty child. “It wasn’t me! I swear!” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-atheist-leader-ellenbeth-wachs-opinions-info/626564.md?page=2)