# The case of Zombie Muhammad vs. the Offended Muslim Guy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971 "2012-02-25T16:58:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/61 "2012-02-27T00:33:34Z")
> [@Xenocrates](#): > > However, this case is quite different from the one in Afghanistan. There, an occupying force did something extremely culturally offensive. If some primarily-Muslim force were occupying some part of the US and started burning Bibles, I’d imagine there would be a pretty strong reaction. Or flags. No need for a hypothetical there; Americans freak out all the time when somebody somewhere burns a flag. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/62 "2012-02-27T00:35:37Z")
> [@Xenocrates](#): > > This seems right. It is not a case of some individual asshole, there appears to be a real phenomenon in which certain subsections of the Islamic population react to religious insults with violence. (Nobody is making some ridiculous claim about _all_ Muslims.) I’m a pretty tolerant dude, but this is a line-in-the-sand issue. Blasphemy is not a crime here and people should absolutely not be any more cautious about insulting Islam than any other religion. You’re ignoring the explicit claim **Magellan** has made that the ones who become violent because of blasphemy are the _real_ Muslims, and the ones who don’t “aren’t very good Muslims.” ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/63 "2012-02-27T00:49:06Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > You’re ignoring the explicit claim **Magellan** has made that the ones who become violent because of blasphemy are the _real_ Muslims, and the ones who don’t “aren’t very good Muslims.” Chessic has also explicitly said that. He has yet to explain his implication that most Americans aren’t good Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/64 "2012-02-27T00:53:33Z")
I don’t see why one should have to believe/prove that some thresshold number of Muslims are violent, or worry about what some guy on the Internet claims about Islam in general, in order to be upset that a Muslim physically attacked a person for making fun of Islam and got away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/65 "2012-02-27T01:05:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Chessic has also explicitly said that. > > He has yet to explain his implication that most Americans aren’t good Christians. Well… Lots of the more ardent Christians around here _do_ think most Americans aren’t good Christians so I’m not sure they’d take this as a particularly telling point. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/66 "2012-02-27T01:06:57Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Chessic has also explicitly said that. > > He has yet to explain his implication that most Americans aren’t good Christians. This is a technique you use repeatedly, and it’s neither clever nor helpful. You clearly think that **Chessic’s** argument relies on principles that would lead to other conclusions which he may not be happy with, if he thought it through (ftr, in this case, I agree with you). However, claiming that he’s said something he hasn’t said is dangerously close to a lie about him. It’s not a clever way of getting him to see the error of his ways; on the contrary, he’s far likelier to say, “What the hell’s wrong with you?” and ignore you from then on. If you want to lay out the flaws in his reasoning–by pointing out, for example, the Biblical passages that have been relied on in the past to justify witch hunts and expulsions of Jews from Christian lands–have at it. But please knock it off with this approach. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/67 "2012-02-27T01:18:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Enough of this amazingly ridiculous attempt to confuse the issue. No one is questioning if there are assholes in the world, nor if some asshole might be so offensive as to get an deserved (even if illegal) beating. Nope. No one is arguing that. Got that, Inbred. Good. I never argued that somebody deserved a beating. That’s disgusting. Please demonstrate where I or anybody else supported the notion that somebody deserved a beating. > [@magellan01](#): > > Now, people _are_ criticizing the fact that there’s one religion that thinks that the slightest insult of the subject of their justifies violence. I don’t know how you or anyone can defend that stupidity. I’m offended by a friggin’costume: I must beat someone. The Koran was burned: Christians must be killed. Muhammad was drawn in cartoon form. DEATH to the infidels! I know this sound like a Southpark episode, but it’s not. It’s ten times more absurd than that. What’s next, killing someone for thinking bad thought about their precious prophet? Well, I’m thinking some outrageous shit right now—HA. And Muhammad seems to be really enjoying it! All of your posts have the exact same pattern. They start with a preamble that vaguely points toward tolerance or understanding how all your previous posts were fine exhibits of prejudice and then you jump right into the Muslim bashing. Now you got your specific instances, but it doesn’t wipe away the real underlying sentiment, that its “Yet another incident that points to the ill fit between Islam and the civilized world”. > [@magellan01](#): > > So, at the very least, try to stay on point and compare religious assholes to religious assholes who kill at the slightest imagined provocation. If you think there’s parity, please provide a scorecard. Otherwise, embrace reality and accept that the way many embrace Islam clashes with the beliefs of the civilized. When did hitting somebody that offended you make you a member of the “uncivilized”? They’re people who violated an important principle of our culture and are brought into court to be punished. Especially after reading the judge’s response to the whole thing, it sounds like justice as justice should be performed in our culture. You seem to forget that both men _sought out police help_. That sure does sound like uncivilized savages to me! It’s not enough though is it? You need the extra little bit, the salting of the story with anti-Muslim hysteria to really make it what you want it to be. > [@Xenocrates](#): > > This seems right. It is not a case of some individual asshole, there appears to be a real phenomenon in which certain subsections of the Islamic population react to religious insults with violence. (Nobody is making some ridiculous claim about _all_ Muslims.) What does the quote “Yet another incident that points to the ill fit between Islam and the civilized world” mean to you? Is it like hating the sin but not the sinner? There was, in fact, a claim made about all Muslims and it was responded to. > [@Xenocrates](#): > > I’m a pretty tolerant dude, but this is a line-in-the-sand issue. Blasphemy is not a crime here and people should absolutely not be any more cautious about insulting Islam than any other religion. And charges of harassment were brought against the man that did not understand this about our society. Is there something else you need to see happen? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/68 "2012-02-27T01:30:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > … And just to be crystal clear. Islam is at the root of this. It’s as if Jews and Christians started taking every word in the Old Testament literally. … "It’s as if " so, there’s really no difference between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity as far as them being bloodthirsty religions . . . but Islam is still different in how bloodthirsty it compared to Judaism, and Christianity. It’s not just a difference in how those bloodthirsty religions are currently practiced by a minority of their believers, got it. > [@magellan01](#): > > … They can take their … honor killings and genital mutilation and rape as a punishment and stonings and go suck camel balls. > > Not to imply that they don’t already suck camel balls, of course. … And we’re off to the races . . . again, 10 pages of arguing about whether those things are a part of Islamic culture or they’re part of cultures that happen to also be Islamic. > [@Magiver](#): > > … The religion is based on a prophet who wasn’t particularly fond of blasphemy. … Totally unlike Judaism and Christianity. _Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain._ Oh, yeah, there is that. Ya know, both religions being based on a god who wasn’t particularly fond of blasphemy. So, yeah, totally different. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/69 "2012-02-27T02:33:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is a technique you use repeatedly, and it’s neither clever nor helpful. You clearly think that **Chessic’s** argument relies on principles that would lead to other conclusions which he may not be happy with, if he thought it through (ftr, in this case, I agree with you). However, claiming that he’s said something he hasn’t said is dangerously close to a lie about him. It’s not a clever way of getting him to see the error of his ways; on the contrary, he’s far likelier to say, “What the hell’s wrong with you?” and ignore you from then on. > > If you want to lay out the flaws in his reasoning–by pointing out, for example, the Biblical passages that have been relied on in the past to justify witch hunts and expulsions of Jews from Christian lands–have at it. But please knock it off with this approach. As **Ibn** probably knows, I don’t think very much of his posts here. But in this particular case, I _think_ you may have missed something? **Chessic** said, earlier: > [@](#): > > Thing is, the only reason a minority of Muslims is able to behave in a civilized country is because they’re not particularly good at being Muslims. Doesn’t **Ibn’s** comment in response to me seem to constitute a fair paraphrase of what **Chessic** said? (BTW it appears I had **Magellan** mixed up with **Chessic** in my own post… ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/70 "2012-02-27T02:35:12Z")
Ah–it occurs to me you’re referring to **Ibn’s** use of the phrase “his implication” in place of the more accurate rendering “the implication that follows from what he said.” Was that what you meant? (“His implication” seems to indicate that he actually intended the inference to be made, but of course, he didn’t. Is that what you meant?) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/71 "2012-02-27T03:14:29Z")
> [@Xenocrates](#): > > However, this case is quite different from the one in Afghanistan. There, an occupying force did something extremely culturally offensive. If some primarily-Muslim force were occupying some part of the US and started burning Bibles, I’d imagine there would be a pretty strong reaction. not really. People would object of course but making fun of Jesus is pretty much a national sport in this country. Strong objections come about when it’s a government funded art project but even then nobody is asking for a head on a platter. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/72 "2012-02-27T04:03:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or flags. No need for a hypothetical there; Americans freak out all the time when somebody somewhere burns a flag. Define “freak out”. If you don’t mean “they go around setting fire to cars and shops and murdering people” then quit trying to draw equivalence between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/73 "2012-02-27T05:24:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is a technique you use repeatedly, and it’s neither clever nor helpful. You clearly think that **Chessic’s** argument relies on principles that would lead to other conclusions which he may not be happy with, if he thought it through (ftr, in this case, I agree with you). However, claiming that he’s said something he hasn’t said is dangerously close to a lie about him. I didn’t say that he’d said something he hadn’t said. I said the implication of his post was that most Americans aren’t good Christians. Chessic claimed: > [@](#): > > Thing is, the only reason a minority of Muslims is able to behave in a civilized country is because they’re not particularly good at being Muslims. The implication of this statement is that most American Christians or in fact most Christians in “civilized countries” aren’t particularly good at being Christians. > [@](#): > > It’s not a clever way of getting him to see the error of his ways; on the contrary, he’s far likelier to say, “What the hell’s wrong with you?” and ignore you from then on. I’m a Muslim and he’s made some fairly bigoted comments about Muslims so I seriously doubt he’d really care what I have to say. If people who’ve been bigoted ever “see the error of [their] ways” it’s not because of seeing the arguments put forward by someone from a group they hate. I’m merely pointing out the logical consequences of his argument. He can either agree with that(which he may very well since there are plenty of Islamophobes who would) disagree, or simply ignore me. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/74 "2012-02-27T06:24:24Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > It’s not just a difference in how those bloodthirsty religions are currently practiced by a minority of their believers, got it. And we’re off to the races . . . again, 10 pages of arguing about whether those things are a part of Islamic culture or they’re part of cultures that happen to also be Islamic.Totally unlike Judaism and Christianity. [For your viewing pleasure:](http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/iran-military-official-only-burning-white-house-can-make-up-for-burning-koran-1.414765#.T0k-5XriQww.facebook) emphasis mine) > [@](#): > > Responding to Obama’s apology on Saturday, the commander of Iran’s Basij force Brigadier General Mohammad Reza Naqd claimed that the holy book was burned by U.S. forces over the heavy slap it has been given by Islam," urging Muslims worldwide to reject the American apology. > > “ **Nothing but burning the White House can relieve the wound of us,** the Muslims, caused by the Burning of Quran in the US,” he said adding: " **Their apology can be accepted only by hanging their commanders; hanging their commanders means an apology,"** he was quoted by the semi-official Fars news agency as saying. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/75 "2012-02-27T11:03:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Got that, Inbred. Good. Please pay attention to which of your opponents you are insulting. While you will get away with shortening **Inbred Mm Domesticus** to “Inbred,” using that term to address Ibn Warraq is against the rules. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/76 "2012-02-27T13:38:44Z")
Anyway, the reaction in Afghanistan isn’t to the burning of Korans. It’s a reaction to years of violent occupation, murder of children and other innocent civilians, sometimes desecration of the corpses of these victims, and an apparent disregard for any distinction between “terrorist” and “afghan citizen”. PLUS they burned some Korans. Let’s have the analogous events happen in the States and see how US citizens tend to react. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/77 "2012-02-27T13:44:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yet another incident that points to the ill fit between Islam and the civilized world. We need to let adherents of that religion know that the “justification” that someone made fun of Muhammad, or drew a cartoon of him or burned a Koran is actually ZERO justification. The more we tip-toe around this we imply that that actually do have some justification to commit violence because their widdle feewlings were hurt. Fuck that. Note to Muslims: Welcome to the 21 century. Enjoy yourselves. If you insist on acting like ignorant, atavistic troglodytes, go fuck yourselves. This. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/78 "2012-02-27T14:38:29Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > This. So which part of of seeking out the police, showing up to court proceedings, explaining his actions, and accepting the verdict of the judge clearly shows that this man is uncivilized? Or are you just loving the sinner but hating the sin? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/79 "2012-02-27T14:53:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Please pay attention to which of your opponents you are insulting. While you will get away with shortening **Inbred Mm Domesticus** to “Inbred,” using that term to address Ibn Warraq is against the rules. > > [/Moderating] Wow, I’ve seen a lot of moderator warnings on not insulting people but this is the first making it clear that there is means for it to be perfectly okay to be insulting toward a poster. I look forward to more than just **FinnAgain** and **magellan01** being insulting. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971/80 "2012-02-27T15:39:38Z")
What percentage of assaults in the United States do not involve Muslims? What percentage of assaults in the United States that originate in religious disputes do not involve Muslims? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-case-of-zombie-muhammad-vs-the-offended-muslim-guy/613971.md?page=5)