# The Cat Who Walked Through Walls: major spoilers and some "gahuuuh?!?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 1, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350 "2005-10-01T17:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/41 "2005-10-15T03:47:27Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I have in my possession a signed First Edition of _Ringworld_ (paperback, of course, since that was how it was first published) with the inscription “I did that on purpose! Larry Niven.” When I asked him to sign it that way he laughed. Nice guy, overall. 😃 Heh. Someone would pick up that reference, here. 😉 Heinlein, though, who was famous for working out complex Hohmann orbits or spacesuit equalization mechanisms in order to support one or two sentances of text in a four hundred page novel, never would have let something like that slip by. But then, when you’re willing to let an entire billion-Earth-mass celestial structure slide into the sun by gross miscalculation or throw a character through the egosphere of a black hole with a gravity gradient so steep it would strip the electrons from an atom, what’s a counterrotating planet here or there? 😃 Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/42 "2005-10-15T04:46:07Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > I think Heinlein is so revered in part because he pulled science fiction from the gutter of pulp magazines and made it respectable by focusing on characters rather than technology or abstract philosophy. I’d say Campbell did that - but I’m not knocking Heinlein. I’ve read Astounding for the entire Golden Age (1938 - 1945). You can see the vast improvement as Campbell got and trained new writers. But even of that sterling lot Heinlein stood out, almost always getting the top AnLab spots, or two at once if there was an Anson McDonald story there. The analogy that comes to mind is the Beatles in 1964-65. I’ve really got to reread him in the proper order. Curse you, thread! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/43 "2005-10-15T06:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > And he never has the Earth rotating the wrong direction, Larry. _snicker_ Oh, it gets better. In later editions, he corrected the Earth’s rotation, but even still, _Ringworld_ consistently uses a value of g = 9.98 m/s[sup]2[/sup], instead of the correct 9.8. But what the hey… If Pluto is ten times the size it is in our world, who’s to say that Known Space’s Earth isn’t maybe a little bigger than ours, too? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/44 "2005-10-15T07:25:42Z")
**silenus** , I have, at one time, owned a copy of that, as well. And the only reason I knew to look for the blooper was because Larry, himself, was not shy about admitting his error. Philosophically, I think that Heinlein’s biggest contribution (and to some, his biggest flaw) was that he always had, as an unconscious assumption for all his books, the belief that problems are soluble. The solution may not be easy, nor complete, nor necessarily survivable: but solutions are possible. He was also willing to write about complex engineering problems, without ever forgetting that what makes a story is the characters, not the engineering conundrum at the center. He has his many flaws in his writing. But that doesn’t keep him from being one of the real fathers of SF, nor from being a great writer. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/45 "2005-10-15T08:25:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, it gets better. In later editions, he corrected the Earth’s rotation, but even still, _Ringworld_ consistently uses a value of g = 9.98 m/s[sup]2[/sup], instead of the correct 9.8. But what the hey… If Pluto is ten times the size it is in our world, who’s to say that Known Space’s Earth isn’t maybe a little bigger than ours, too? Well now…we don’t know the gravity of the Pak homeworld, so 9.88 m/s[sup]2[/sup] might be alright for them. But if you’re really going to nitpick Niven…the field is wide open; from orbital mechanics (_Neutron Star_) to evolutionary biology (_Protector_, _The Mote In God’s Eye_) to cosmology (“The Borderland of Sol”), Niven has made some grand blunders. But at least he has vision; _The Integral Trees_ was brilliant in concept. I choked when it came to _The Legacy of Heorot_, and wish I hadn’t read _The Ringworld Throne_. And _Destiny’s Road_ was simply intolerable. But we were speaking of Heinlein…and his favorite of mine was _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_, seconded only to _…If This Goes On_. I guess there’s nothing like a good revolution. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/46 "2005-10-15T08:32:43Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Well now…we don’t know the gravity of the Pak homeworld, so 9.88 m/s[sup]2[/sup] might be alright for them. Urg…9._9_8 m/s[sup]2[/sup]. Lest I be contributing to the error at hand. Come to think of it, though…how would a species even have time to evolve in the volitile core worlds, where x-ray and gamma radiation from the core would sleet through systems like daggers? And the Ringworld…oh, never mind. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/47 "2005-10-15T11:24:12Z")
Aww, I hate to interrupt a good Niven tangent, but I have to speak up. There are two real Heinlein Stinkers: _I Will Fear No Evil_, and _The Number of the Beast_. The **Brain Transplant Book With Sex** suffered mostly from his illness. If he had been able to cut a third of the dialog, it might have been a classic. Folks tend to forget he wrote it, when they list his adult novels-- Which really ought to include a bunch of the pre-1961 novels. _Double Star_ was thought by some at the time to be a good tale… As for **“The Swiss Family Robinson meets Dorthy and the Tin Man”**? I dunno. Read [this](http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/numberbeast.html), I guess. [sub](Obligatory Niven Content? Go re-read “Cloak of Anarchy” I haven’t read it in maybe 12 years, but I was thinking about the story a few weeks ago when folks had to move in to the Superdome. He nailed it.)[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/48 "2005-10-15T13:27:00Z")
> [@Darth Nader](#): > > Aww, I hate to interrupt a good Niven tangent, but I have to speak up. > > There are two real Heinlein Stinkers: _I Will Fear No Evil_, and _The Number of the Beast_. > > The **Brain Transplant Book With Sex** suffered mostly from his illness. If he had been able to cut a third of the dialog, it might have been a classic. Folks tend to forget he wrote it, when they list his adult novels-- Which really ought to include a bunch of the pre-1961 novels. _Double Star_ was thought by some at the time to be a good tale… > > As for **“The Swiss Family Robinson meets Dorthy and the Tin Man”**? > > I dunno. Read [this](http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/numberbeast.html), I guess. > > [sub](Obligatory Niven Content? Go re-read “Cloak of Anarchy” I haven’t read it in maybe 12 years, but I was thinking about the story a few weeks ago when folks had to move in to the Superdome. He nailed it.)[/sub] I’m a die-hard fan. I enjoyed both of the books you pan. **Beast** is just plain fun and expands on the parallel universe concepts he had used much earlier. I will fear no evil is flawed and light on Science Fiction. It is an interesting character study and he did seem to have changed his mind about homosexuals by this point, which fit more with his usual libertarian views. I thought the characters were interesting and the grittier future he outlined was one you could see from the trends of the late 60’s. Weak Sci-Fi but still a good if unimportant book. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/49 "2005-10-15T13:48:54Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > His strictly adult novels were from 1961 with Stranger in a Strange Land through 1973 Time Enough For Love. . Weird. I don’t want to disagree with you., but gosh. How about _Glory Road_… Thats a story written by a man with a completeley different viewpoint than one in SIAASL or STroopers. And that’s too many, right? “Friday” uses stuff from “I will fear no evil”, and nearly makes a real world of it’s leftovers. Robert had to ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/50 "2005-10-15T14:02:18Z")
> [@Darth Nader](#): > > Weird. I don’t want to disagree with you., but gosh. How about _Glory Road_… > > Thats a story written by a man with a completeley different viewpoint than one in SIAASL or STroopers. And that’s too many, right? > > “Friday” uses stuff from “I will fear no evil”, and nearly makes a real world of it’s leftovers. Robert had to I hope you are okay. Glory Road (1963) was right in the heart of his adult novels. No Juveniles in this period. I was not listing a complete list of books, just establishing my own break points for his career. Glory Road was done almost on a challenge. Someone suggested that fantasy may be harder for him to write. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Nader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Darth\_Nader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Nader)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/51 "2005-10-15T14:13:43Z")
Aww, I hate to interrupt a good Niven tangent, but I have to speak up. There are two real Heinlein Stinkers: _I Will Fear No Evil_, and _The Number of the Beast_. The **Brain Transplant Book With Sex** suffered mostly from his illness. If he had been able to cut a third of the dialog, it might have been a classic. Folks tend to forget he wrote it, when they list his adult novels-- Which really ought to include a bunch of the pre-1961 novels. _Double Star_ was thought by some at the time to be a good tale… As for **“The Swiss Family Robinson meets Dorthy and the Tin Man”**? I dunno. Read [this](http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/numberbeast.html), I guess. [sub](Obligatory Niven Content? Go re-read “Cloak of Anarchy” I haven’t read it in maybe 12 years, but I was thinking about the story a few weeks ago when folks had to move in to the Superdome. He nailed it.)[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/52 "2005-10-15T14:38:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But _The Cat who Walked through Walls_ is one of his post-seniles. My hat’s off to you for finishing it; if that had been my introduction to Heinlein, I know I sure wouldn’t have. The first half of the book was quirky and interesting. The fact that no one seemed to be doing anything didn’t really bother me because it was a fun adventure Heinlein was taking me on. But I think it was when Bill, a semi-major character, was abandoned, turned back into a rogue thug, and then killed all for no apparent reason I began to say “huh?” Then a few pages later he mentions Time Travel for the first time, which suddenly becomes the entire focus of the book from here on out despite the fact that there was no whiff of time travel being at play at any point prior to this. That made me again go “huh?” Only a tad louder as sound doesn’t travel that well in space and i wanted to make my voice heard. It was then I realized again what I realized all along: these characters aren’t doing anything! Only in the bad way. And each page brought them closer to the end of the book and each page my dread of none of the mysteries getting solved became more and more entrenched. With about 60 pages left I was thoroughly confused but it was at this point I resolved that I MUST finish this book…if only so I could have bitching rights afterwards. And so here I am! **Jonathan Chance** your offer is most kind and I believe I will take you up on it. I’ll e-mail you my info tomorrow. Thank you. what exactly are his “juveniles”? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/53 "2005-10-15T15:52:39Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > What exactly are his “juveniles”? What would be called “Young Adult” today, aimed at preteen/midteen readers. It should be noted, though, that Heinlein’s juveniles are head and shoulders above most of the dreck that passes and has passed for adult science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/54 "2005-10-15T16:21:37Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > What exactly are his “juveniles”? A generally accepted list: Rocket Ship Galileo (1947) Space Cadet (1948) Red Planet (1949) Farmer In the Sky (1950) Between Planets (1951) The Rolling Stones (1952) Starman Jones (1953) The Star Beast (1954) Tunnel In the Sky (1955) Time for the Stars (1956) Citizen of the Galaxy (1957) Have Space Suit Will Travel (1958) Starship Troopers (1959) (Although I consider the politics behind this one to be very adult in nature) All of them excellent. My favorites are Tunnel, Farmer, and Stones, along with Troopers. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/55 "2005-10-15T17:10:32Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What would be called “Young Adult” today, aimed at preteen/midteen readers. That is to say, the protagonists are all teenagers (and except for Podkayne, boys), and with regard to graphic sex and violence…essentially, there is none. You could publish the books in _Boy’s Life_, and indeed, I think a couple of them may have been in one form or another. But he didn’t dumb down the novels to fit the perception of “juvenile” sensibilities (though he did have to accept some editorial censorship to match the moral strictures of the time and audience.) There’s very little difference in terms of style or content, though, other than the age of the protagonist, between his juvies and his “adult” short novels/novellas of the same period (_Double Star_, _The Door Into Summer_, et cetera.) If you like one, you’ll probably like the other. Heck, Lazarus Long wasn’t much more than a big obnoxious kid himself, especially in _Methuselah’s Children_. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/56 "2005-10-15T17:46:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > A generally accepted list: > All of them excellent. My favorites are Tunnel, Farmer, and Stones, along with Troopers. I grew up on Heinlein’s juveniles as well - Red Planet was the first novel I ever read. But as **Stranger** noted you left off **Podkayne of Mars** :). My least favorite is Troopers, the weakest of the juveniles IMHO, but still entertaining. My own favorites ( if I have to pick three ) are Citizen, Tunnel, and Have Space Suit. However I came in to mention the collection The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag. All the stories are good, but the title story in particular is thematically somewhat atypical for Heinlein and genuinely creepy at times. It’s always been a dark horse favorite of mine. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/57 "2005-10-15T17:56:57Z")
I agree, **Tamerlane** that The Unpleasant Profession is genuinely creepy, but my favorite story from that collection is “The Man Who Travelled in Elephants.” Which is just as atypical as Profession, but in a completely different direction. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/58 "2005-10-15T22:17:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 “Sez you! – The Galactic Overlord” Given the premise advanced in _The Number of the Beast_ and expanded on in _Cat_, this supposed unexplained practical joke in _The Rolling Stones_ has an interesting point. (BTW, this is the chronological first appearance of Hazel Meade (Gwen Novak, Sadie Lipschitz) Stone, who reappears in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ and both the abovereferenced books.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/59 "2005-10-15T22:23:42Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’d read, long ago, I can’t recall where, that the first half of the book was written in the 40s or 50s, and put in hold for a very long time. The second half was written 20 years later, when he was a bit crazy. That’s why it seems like two entirely different books somehow joined together for no real reason. > > My reaction to the book was basically: “Hmm… this is interesting… uh?.. wtf!!!” through the beginning, middle, and end. That was _Stranger in a Strange Land_ (a decade later), not _Cat_. Details available in _Grumbles from the Grave_ if you’re sufficiently interested. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/60 "2005-10-15T22:46:29Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > But we were speaking of Heinlein…and his favorite of mine was _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_, seconded only to _…If This Goes On_. I guess there’s nothing like a good revolution. > > Stranger Well, you know, we all want to change the world! 😉 The point to _Cat_ which makes it so annoying as a casual-read novel and IMO so important in Heinlein’s canon is that it defines from the very title what it is attempting to do, and then we get annoyed when it actually does it. We want our fiction carefully wrapped, with no loose ends (unless they’re set up for a sequel). Real life isn’t like that. Worse, according to modern indeterminacy theory, _ **the fricken Universe** _ isn’t like that, with things that are not only not known but **unknowable**. Indeterminacy, quantum theory, collapsing of quantum indeterminacy. “Pixel is Schrodinger’s cat.” Somebody (Jane Libby?) says that explicitly in the book. Is Schrodinger’s cat alive or dead? Under the setup of the thought experiment, you **can’t** know – until you open the box after the experiment. And that is exactly where Heinlein leaves Pixel – and the protagonists. What about all those loose ends? From Enrico Schulz to Bill the Galactic Derelict to Rabbi Ben Ezra? (and yes, the puns are intentional, and not, I suspect, mine but RAH’s) Heinlein makes a half-baked attempt at explaining some of them via Uncle Jock and Jubal, but _intentionally_ leaves several unexplained. Just like real life. Back in _Number of the Beast_, there’s a discussion between the four lead characters on the distinction between “random” and “chance” and whether _anything_ is “pure chance” that still leaves me sleepless occasionally. Heinlein’s creed was that all problems have solutions. Quantum theory and indeterminacy, along with Godel, say that not only do not all problems have solutions, but we _cannot possibly_ know the answers even if they do. To a man of Heinlein’s makeup, this abdication of scientific inquiry into a sort of vague mysticism was unconscionable. So he devoted an entire book to saying, It won’t work; it isn’t true. There **is** an answer. Here’s **why** it’s so much BS. If the book leaves you vastly unsatisfied, that’s **precisely** his point. As Jake Burroughs says, in so many words, in that discussion in the _Dora_ that Lazarus’s bad temper (where’d he get that from?) ends. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350.md?page=4)