# The Cat Who Walked Through Walls: major spoilers and some "gahuuuh?!?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 1, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350 "2005-10-01T17:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/61 "2005-10-15T22:47:55Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > That was _Stranger in a Strange Land_ (a decade later), not _Cat_. Details available in _Grumbles from the Grave_ if you’re sufficiently interested. Really? huh. It made sense to me, because it seems like the first half and the second half of Cat are entirely different books. Stranger has a fairly dramatic change to examining the implications of someone raised outside of human culture to hippy love fest, but it’s not as jarring, or as mostly incoherent as the second half of Cat. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/62 "2005-10-15T22:50:09Z")
> [@](#): > > A generally accepted list: I would include _Orphans of the Sky_ on that list, but not _Starship Troopers_. The juveniles aren’t completely well-defined. Oh, and a word of warning: Don’t expect to learn anything from _Time for the Stars_: He completely botched all of the relativity in that one (which was pretty much the entire point of the book). I guess I’d consider that one to be the exception to “all of Heinlein’s juvies are good” (though it’s still better than the second half of _Cat_). And why the heck are all of the Google ads for _mystery_ books? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/63 "2005-10-16T01:06:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I would include _Orphans of the Sky_ on that list, but not _Starship Troopers_. The juveniles aren’t completely well-defined. Oh, and a word of warning: Don’t expect to learn anything from _Time for the Stars_: He completely botched all of the relativity in that one (which was pretty much the entire point of the book). I guess I’d consider that one to be the exception to “all of Heinlein’s juvies are good” (though it’s still better than the second half of _Cat_). > > And why the heck are all of the Google ads for _mystery_ books? How did he botch the relativity? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/64 "2005-10-16T01:12:53Z")
Yeah, I’d like to know that as well. Ender, I look forward to the email! ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/65 "2005-10-16T01:51:32Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Stranger has a fairly dramatic change to examining the implications of someone raised outside of human culture to hippy love fest, but it’s not as jarring, or as mostly incoherent as the second half of Cat. Actually, Heinlein claimed that he plotted out _Stranger In A Strange Land_ beforehand (and it was one of the few, if not the only novel, he ever plotted out in that detail). The breakpoint is deliberate and intentionally jarring, just like Janet Leigh’s “premature” death in _Psycho_ or Orson Welles’ appearance half-way through _The Third Man_, and the subsequent change in tone from a pulp mystery to a moral conundrum. Don’t mistake a deliberate shift in tone for sloppy, inconsistant writing. In this case, at least, it was all part of the plan. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/66 "2005-10-16T03:51:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I would include _Orphans of the Sky_ on that list, but not _Starship Troopers_. The juveniles aren’t completely well-defined. Oh, and a word of warning: Don’t expect to learn anything from _Time for the Stars_: He completely botched all of the relativity in that one (which was pretty much the entire point of the book). I guess I’d consider that one to be the exception to “all of Heinlein’s juvies are good” (though it’s still better than the second half of _Cat_). Orphans was serialized in Astounding, so it is really a part of the Future History Series - the ship was the first of the series the second of which was hijacked by Lazarus Long and company. More about juveniles - if you grew up in the '50s, you read juevenile sf, some with rocket ships on the spine so you knew what it was. 🙂 Some were crap, but much of it was written by people like Lester del Rey and Wollheim. Many of these could be found in your school library and the juvenile sf ghetto that my library, at least, had. I believe Starship Troopers was meant as a juvenile, but was not released as such. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/67 "2005-10-16T03:58:44Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I believe Starship Troopers was meant as a juvenile, but was not released as such. Starship Troopers was written as the 1960 submission for Heinlein’s annual juvenile novel published by Charles Scribner’s Sons. It was unanimously rejected by the firm’s editorial board, despite the fact that a precis of what he’d be doing with it had been submitted and accepted. G.P. Putnam bought the book on the open market from his agent, and published it without promoting it as a juvenile, though they were well aware that it was written as a juvenile. (“There’s a Heinlein juvenile available? Grab it!” – Verbatim instructions reported to Heinlein by his editor as having been given him [the editor] by his boss) My understanding is that Heinlein was one of a very few authors whose juveniles sold as well on the open market as they did in specialized children’s books marketing (which of course accounts for the majority of juvenile-book sales), and Putnam intended to pick up on that by placing it in their general list. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/68 "2005-10-16T04:16:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I believe Starship Troopers was meant as a juvenile, but was not released as such. I believe _Troopers_ was meant as what was at the time called a “cadet”–a novel for middling-upper teenagers. Although the tone of the novel is jingoistic (Heinlein claimed to have wrote it as a response to people disappointed in the nonresolution in Korea and the nascient peacenik movement), the reason his then contracted publisher (Scribners) elected not to publish it was because they didn’t think that particular segment of the market was a profitable one, what with televison, drive-thrus, drive-in movies, three-two beer, et cetera. That’s their sucks, I guess; despite the controversy it still engenders it remains one of Heinlein’s best-selling novels, probably second only to _Stranger_. Putnum took option on it instead, and the rest is history. (We’ll consigned that dreadful Paul Verhoeven movie adaptation to the rubbish bin of lost history, thank you.) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/69 "2005-10-16T13:42:18Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Yeah – me, too. _The Rolling Stones_ seems as straight-forward a juvenile as you might sample from Heinlein. Hmnmm… Someone could make an argument that it’s the first stab at World-As-Myth. Remember the whole bit with John Sterling: Hero of Scourge of the Spaceways/The Galactic Overlord? Remember when they had to put their cargo into orbit and when they came back and got it, there was a note from The Galactic Overlord? Someone could argue that _that_ was one of the first appearances of it. _I_ wouldn’t, but someone might. You could make a stronger case for the short story “Assignment In Eternity” where a character walks into a world where the Biblical heaven exists (more or less) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/70 "2005-10-16T14:02:28Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > You could make a stronger case for the short story “Assignment In Eternity” where a character walks into a world where the Biblical heaven exists (more or less) And before this gets me pitted, I mean the stuff about streets of jasper and walls of gold and gates carved from humongous pearls and like that\*. Weirdly, the character gets it wrong, btw: she _becomes_ an angel after her death. She appears in Heaven as an angel, but IIRC, people don’t become angels. \*Sorry folks, if Heaven really _does_ look like John described it, and it’s not just a metaphor for “Really, really kewl”, then God lost his sense of good taste after he built the earth and the universe. A couple of comments: **Farnham’s** is not a Drakka parallel, IMO. It was intended to be a “How’d you like it if the shoe was on the other foot” novel. It fails at this miserably, but the intent was to show his (predominately white) audience that racism and slavery suck by doing it to whites. Technically, neither **Starship** nor **Podkayne** are juvies. The “cannonical” juvies were A)published by Scribners (bye-bye **Podkayne** and B) Marketed by Scribner’s as such–including library submissions/marketing (bye-bye **Troopers** ). I’d agree that **Podkayne** _almost_ feels like a juvie (except for the ending–and the compromise ending is the only one that works, IMO) but, to me, **Troopers** doesn’t _feel_ like a juvie. I’d never heard the term “Cadet novel” before, but that makes a _ton_ of sense. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/71 "2005-10-16T17:26:22Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Hmnmm… > > Someone could make an argument that it’s the first stab at World-As-Myth. Remember the whole bit with John Sterling: Hero of Scourge of the Spaceways/The Galactic Overlord? Remember when they had to put their cargo into orbit and when they came back and got it, there was a note from The Galactic Overlord? Someone could argue that _that_ was one of the first appearances of it. > > _I_ wouldn’t, but someone might. Someone did. See post #58. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/72 "2005-10-19T01:55:47Z")
OK, folks. Ender contacted me. I’ve Amazoned him up these titles: The Door Into Summer Have Space Suit Will Travel The Moon is a Harsh Mistress They didn’t have a copy of The Past Through Tomorrow Available. Can you guys believe that? Ender…you should have them by the end of the week or so. Maybe Monday at the latest. Keep us posted! ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/73 "2005-10-19T02:51:51Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > OK, folks. > > Ender contacted me. I’ve Amazoned him up these titles: > > The Door Into Summer > Have Space Suit Will Travel > The Moon is a Harsh Mistress > > They didn’t have a copy of The Past Through Tomorrow Available. Can you guys believe that? > > Ender…you should have them by the end of the week or so. Maybe Monday at the latest. > > Keep us posted! Thank you very much **Jonathan Chance**! The only one I’ve heard of is the last one. It’s won a few awards, hasn’t it? Behold, the power of the internet. The Hugo award. That’s probably where I learned of it. I’m looking forward to the package. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/74 "2005-10-19T02:57:07Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > Thank you very much **Jonathan Chance**! The only one I’ve heard of is the last one. It’s won a few awards, hasn’t it? > > Behold, the power of the internet. The Hugo award. That’s probably where I learned of it. > > I’m looking forward to the package. Moon is absolutely great, Door is awesome and Have Spacesuit was the second RAH book I read after Rocketship Galileo. Enjoy. You are now in for a real treat. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/75 "2005-10-21T22:57:18Z")
**Jonathan Chance** , I got home today and found a box waiting for me upon arrival. I thought these were just books you had around your place you were willing to give away. There was no need to go to such troubles for me, but I thank you all the same. I’m looking forward to reading them. I just finished Mort yesterday, one of the few Terry Pratchett books I’ve read. As an aside, I really enjoyed that and I’m going to have to pick up more of his works in the future. So I have nothing on my sci-fi fantasy list until mid November when A Feast of Crows comes out (which I simply must get as it hits the bookstores). This will be perfect to fill the slot in between. So what order would you all recommend? In order of my title recognition: Moon Spacesuit Door In order of publication: Door Spacesuit Moon Alphabetical: Spacesuit Door Moon I could keep going. 🙂 I’ll start reading your choice on Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/76 "2005-10-22T00:36:46Z")
Good choices, **Chance**. _The Door into Summer_ is my personal favorite, though it’s not precisely to everyone’s tastes (I’m a sucker for happy endings). And _Spacesuit_ seems to be the most popular of the juvies. **Enderw24** , I would recommend reading them in age-level order, _Spacesuit_ first, then _Door_, then _Mistress_. _Spacesuit_ (the juvie) will be a quick read, and that’ll let you sort of work your way into Heinlein. Quoth **Sam Stone** : > [@](#): > > How did he botch the relativity? In a word, completely. He correctly calculates the dilation formula, but he misapplies it. I understand that he was trying to simplify relativity to make it easier to understand, but his simplification is to introduce a privelidged frame of reference, which completely chucks relativity out with the bathwater. While it’s true that the homebound twin (I can’t remember their names) would regard the travelling twin as aging slowly, the travelling twin would also regard the homebound twin as aging slowly. This state of affairs, with each twin older than the other, would continue until and unless one of them turned to rejoin the other. At which point which one was older would depend on which one turned. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/77 "2005-10-22T00:48:18Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > **Jonathan Chance** , I got home today and found a box waiting for me upon arrival. I thought these were just books you had around your place you were willing to give away. There was no need to go to such troubles for me, but I thank you all the same. I’m looking forward to reading them. It’s truly no trouble, Ender. I hope you enjoy them. Give us all here some feedback. Like Chronos, I recommend _Have Space Suit Will Travel_ first. The _Door Into Summer_ can move you into a more mature writing style. Then _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ can move you into his adult fiction. Enjoy the books. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/78 "2005-10-22T00:51:11Z")
I second **Chronos** ’ order. Work your way up. _Moon_ is the best of the three, so save it for last. (Best of the three: like picking the most attractive of triplets!) Besides, I think it is my all-time favorite book. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350/79 "2005-10-22T04:07:08Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > **Jonathan Chance** , I got home today and found a box waiting for me upon arrival. First off - **Enderw24** , I am jealous. You’re going to get to read, for the first time, some great novels. As for order, I’d endorse that proposed by **Chronos** and all the others. Enjoy! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-cat-who-walked-through-walls-major-spoilers-and-some-gahuuuh/324350.md?page=3)