# The Catholic Church and Galileo **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 14, 2000, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549 "2000-04-14T12:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KSO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@KSO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KSO)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/1 "2000-04-14T12:51:00Z")
I’m looking at my Far Side calendar for today, which says that the Catholic Church did not recognize the validity of Galileo’s work until 1993. Now, I realize that the Far Side is probably not the best source for accurate historical information but I’m also feeling too lazy to search this out for myself. So, if anyone can help out, I’d appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/2 "2000-04-14T13:26:00Z")
Short answer: No, definitely not true. In 1992, the Church officially apologized for its persecution of Galileo, but had acknowledged the truth of the heliocentric system long before. (No later than 1822, and probably well before that.) Longer answer: tomndebb is much better on this topic, having probably been performing apologetics for the Catholic Church as long as he’s been Catholic, but it in any case, the Galileo affair is misunderstood by probably 99% of the public. It had a lot more to do with politics than it did with science, and Galileo created several of his own problems by: a) dragging his scientific work into the realm of theology and insisting that the Church accept an unproven hypothesis and reinterpret Scripture; b) publicly and dramatically insulting (in a published work) a close and powerful friend who, as it happened, had become Pope; c) not being able to determine stellar parallax and insisting that orbits were perfect circles; and d) not being able to prove the hypothesis (and getting other stuff wrong in the process). Galileo was never tortured or even threatened with torture; he was sentenced by the Holy Office of the Inquisition (and not the Pope) not to teach Copernicanism and placed under a fairly comfortable house arrest. He certainly didn’t quit or disavow the Church–he had two (illegitimate) daughters who were nuns, and his first project after his arrest was helping a local church to cast a new bell. ---
**Author:** ![RM\_Mentock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@RM\_Mentock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RM_Mentock)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/3 "2000-04-14T13:48:00Z")
I believe that Pope Benedict XIV officially endorsed the Complete Works of Galileo, in 1741. The apology (in 1992?) was for the way Galileo was treated. Others were treated worse, in the religious clime of the time (Salem witch trials, later in the century, for instance). * * * rocks ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/4 "2000-04-14T15:25:00Z")
The Church certainly has conduct to answer for – but I’m pleased to say that the Salem witch trials were of Protestant origin, Catholic not being all that welcome in Massachusetts at the time. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/5 "2000-04-14T15:32:00Z")
Galileo was excommunicated, in part for teaching/expounding an idea that suggested the Earth was not the center of the Universe, and thus not the center of God’s attention [in a VERY (read: overly) concise summary]. What happened in 1992/3 was that the Church recinded its excommunication. * * * Sala, can’t you count?!? I said NO camels! That’s FIVE camels! ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/6 "2000-04-14T16:12:00Z")
Connor, Galileo was NEVER excommunicated, and if you have a source that says otherwise, I’d like to see it. Furthermore, the Church’s problem was NEVER with Galileo teaching heliocentrism per se, but with, again, insisting it was true when he could not prove it, and insisting the Church accept it unproven and reinterpret Scripture in light of it. Keep in mind, too, that Galileo’s model had several things wrong with it, relying on epicycles to describe planetary motion as much as the geocentric system did. Only Kepler got that part figured out, and Galileo made fun of him. Anybody who knows me knows I am far from a fan of organized religion in general and Christianity it particular, but in this case, the Church really does get a pretty bum rap. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/7 "2000-04-14T16:53:00Z")
Hey, Phil! Glad to see you back! I’ve got nothing to add to what Phil posted; he got every one of the essentials correct. I do have a couple web sites I can link when I get home if anyone is actually interested. * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/8 "2000-04-14T18:33:00Z")
My bad, P. I must have been thinking about my uncle Jimmy… * * * Sala, can’t you count?!? I said NO camels! That’s FIVE camels! ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/9 "2000-04-14T18:38:00Z")
[hijack] Phil!!! Hi, Phil! (Waved wildly.) Y’know, I’ve really missed your ascerbic voice of reason around here – and you probably thought I’d be the last person you’d hear that from. 🙂 Welcome back; hope you’re staying. [/hijack] ## We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread. Jodi _Fiat Justitia_ ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/10 "2000-04-14T19:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by tomndebb: > I do have a couple web sites I can link when I get home if anyone is actually interested. Please do, tomndebb. P.S. Welcome back Mr. Dennison! Your presence here is happy news indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/11 "2000-04-14T20:45:00Z")
Glad to see you back, Phil. (Did you think you’d hear that from me?) You’re right about Galileo: His problems arose because, like some scientists I’ve known, he thought **he** was the center of the universe ;). * * * Synonym: the word you use in place of a word you can’t spell. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/12 "2000-04-14T21:20:00Z")
If you are interested in Gallileo and the church I urge you to read Giorgio de Santillana’s book “The Crime of Gallileo” A very well written impartial treatment of G’s realtion to the church. The book basically validates some of the above points: Namely, that Gallileo was persecuted for being a jerk as much as for heliocentrism. Also check out Koestler’s “the Sleepwalkers” for a very readable history of the rise of the heliocentric theory, but beware that Koestler paints Gallileo as more of a jerk than he really was. * * * Perked Ears indicate curiosity - Know Your Cat ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/13 "2000-04-14T22:50:00Z")
“1631: Galileo excommunicated” from [http://www.ladybarrow.com/florence\_outline.html](http://www.ladybarrow.com/florence_outline.html) “the Church abused its authority by imposing the Ptolemaic view of geocentrism on the astronomer Galileo, and excommunicated him when he totally refused to recant his heliocentric view” from [http://www.discovery.org/w3/discovery.org/fellows/plant.html](http://www.discovery.org/w3/discovery.org/fellows/plant.html) “Galileo was excommunicated by the Church in 1633 but permitted a Christian burial here in 1737” from [http://photo.net/italy/florence-churches.html](http://photo.net/italy/florence-churches.html) I don’t know if those sources are correct, but they are certainly consistent. Of course, being pretty much ignorant of Catholic stuff, I don’t know if one part of the church could have excommunicated him and another not done so. I mean, maybe the Inquisition excommunicated him but the Vatican demured…? * * * Hopefully, I can convince you to accept “hopefully” as a disjunct adverb. Frankly, I would be lying if I said I were confident. Perhaps this subject is simply too complex for me to explain. Unfortunately, I would be lucky to explain my way out of a paper bag. ---
**Author:** ![mipsman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mipsman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mipsman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/14 "2000-04-14T22:54:00Z")
Slightly off topic, but I think the Galileo controversy has a direct bearing on today’s society. Up until Galileo’s time, the Mediterranean countries were the Silicon Valleys of their time. But the threat of thumb screws or the stake there drove future innovation and innovators north into Germany, Holland, and England, intellectually pauperizing Spain and Italy. (There were a few other factors like the discovery of America and the Reformation but I am trying to limit my variables here.) The anti-intellectualism of modern fundamentalist Christianity could wreck similar long term havoc if not corrected/resisted (depending on your viewpoint). ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/15 "2000-04-14T22:57:00Z")
**pldennison** > [@](#): > > Furthermore, the Church’s problem was NEVER with Galileo teaching heliocentrism per se, but with, again, insisting it was true when he could not prove it… I’m not sure it could be proven today. All objects in space are constantly in motion. It is convenient to treat the sun as the fixed frame of reference since it is the most massive object in the area, but it is not actually fixed in position. Heliocentrism wins out when people use Ockham’s (or Occam’s, I don’t care which but I know tons of Straight Dopers will) razor, not because geocentric views have been disproven. Tycho Brahe’s hybrid view predicts reality just as well as heliocentrism, but taking the place where people live as the human frame of reference. Brahe position (Earth is fixed, sun and moon orbit earth, everything else orbits sun) is more complex than Galileo’s, and that is why it is rejected. ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/16 "2000-04-14T23:01:00Z")
Looking back over those sources, I take back what I said about them being “consistent”. Unless Galileo was excommunicated twice, two years apart… Anyway, I should also mention that my search did turn up a bullet board source which claimed Galileo was never excommunicated. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2000, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/17 "2000-04-14T23:08:00Z")
The Catholic church did put his work on the index of forbidden books and did try to suppress scientific investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2000, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/18 "2000-04-15T00:03:00Z")
According to James Burke in the TV series “Connections,” the Catholic Church knew well that their theories were wrong. They were financing many of the celestial discoveries of the time in order to be able to hold a conference on, say April 21, and have all people invited actually attend on the same date, instead of weeks apart. Gallelio wanted credit for his discoveries and published them without first going to the church. Politics is the answer, the church did not want to look bad after telling people wrong information all those years. If Mr. G. had told the church of his discoveries, they likely would have asked him to hold off until they could save some face. Of course, someone else may have ended up with the credit. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2000, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/19 "2000-04-15T05:11:00Z")
This is a fairly even-handed and thorough overview. [The Galileo Affair](http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Issues/GalileoAffair.html) This site is more blatantly pro-Catholic, but it does cite some relevant information. [The Galileo Controversy](http://www.catholic.com/answers/tracts/galileo.htm) Neither of these sites addresses the issue that \*_cooldude_ raises about academic recognition. Obviously, neither site refutes it, either. **Boris B** : > [@](#): > > Heliocentrism wins out when people use Ockham’s (or Occam’s, I don’t care which but I know tons of Straight Dopers will) razor, not because geocentric views have been disproven. Actually, it can be proven, but the instruments available and the knowledge of the sky was not quite adequate at the time. (From the first link: > [@](#): > > Galileo was intent on ramming Copernicus down the throat of Christendom. The irony is that when he started his campaign, he enjoyed almost universal good will among the Catholic hierarchy. But he managed to alienate almost everybody with his caustic manner and aggressive tactics. His position gave the Church authorities no room to maneuver: they either had to accept Copernicanism as a fact (even though it had not been proved) and reinterpret Scripture accordingly; or they had to condemn it. He refused the reasonable third position which the Church offered him: that Copernicanism might be considered a hypothesis, one even superior to the Ptolemiaic system, until further proof could be adduced. > > Such proof, however, was not forthcoming. Galileo’s belligerence probably had much to do with the fact that he knew there was no direct proof of heliocentricism. He could not even answer the strongest argument against it, which was advanced by Aristotle. If the earth did orbit the sun, the philosopher wrote, then stellar parallaxes would be observable in the sky. In other words, there would be a shift in the position of a star observed from the earth on one side of the sun, and then six months later from the other side. Galileo was not able with the best of his telescopes to discern the slightest stellar parallax. This was a valid scientific objection, and it was not answered until 1838, when Friedrich Bessel succeeded in determining the parallax of star 61 Cygni. > > Galileo’s other problem was that he insisted, despite the discoveries of Kepler, that the planets orbit the sun in perfect circles. The Jesuit astronomers could plainly see that this was untenable. Galileo nonetheless launched his campaign with a series of pamphlets and letters which were circulated all over Europe. Along the way, he picked fights with a number of Churchmen on peripheral issues which helped to stack the deck against him. And, despite the warnings of his friends in Rome, he insisted on moving the debate onto theological grounds. * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![Boris\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Boris\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boris_B)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2000, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549/20 "2000-04-15T06:54:00Z")
Hmmm. I’m not sure how to make my point about points of view. I am not a geocentrist. I am more of an egocentrist. It is perfectly logical to base one’s science paradigm off ove your own point of view, particularly if the next closest point of view is eight light-minutes away. Clearly, heliocentrism is vastly simpler and more elegant than geocentrism. That said, I still don’t know why the stellar parallax observations would invalidate Tycho Brahe’s paradigm. If you treat the earth as a fixed frame of reference, then the whole universe moves around it along with the sun. It just doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to me. No object in space is truly fixed in position, you’ve really got to pick one and call it fixed. Brahe picked the nearby one; Galileo picked the one which makes math the simplest. Applying the “heavier is better” rule, we should forget about the piddling motions of planets around the sun, and start calculating everything treating the center of the Milky Way as our fixed frame of reference. That way, we can easily show that nothing moves observably in our lifetimes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-catholic-church-and-galileo/10549.md?page=2)