# The Charlie Gard case(terminally ill baby and parental rights) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2017, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664 "2017-07-07T02:07:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/81 "2017-07-07T16:26:24Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > A chance. A tiny, microscopic chance. A chance that I personally wouldn’t take. But a chance. If the kid is not given the treatment, he’ll die. 100% If he _is_ given the treatment, he has a teeny fraction of a chance. > > Again, I wouldn’t choose this for my kid. But I’d rather let the parents make the choice than a doctor or a panel of judges. I pointed to the neurologist’s testimony. He does not claim this treatment gives Charlie a teeny fraction of a chance. He said there’s a small chance of some improved brain function. If a doctor says you are in the “terminal stage” of an illness and is offering “compassionate” treatment, it’s time to make funeral arrangments. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/82 "2017-07-07T16:28:25Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Again, I wouldn’t choose this for my kid. But I’d rather let the parents make the choice than a doctor or a panel of judges. By contrast, I wouldn’t want my child to suffer unnecessarily. That is, if I was capable of thinking straight which I don’t think I would be - so I’d leave it to the professionals, the medical experts and the legal authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/83 "2017-07-07T16:32:38Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > A chance. A tiny, microscopic chance. A chance that I personally wouldn’t take. But a chance. If the kid is not given the treatment, he’ll die. 100% If he _is_ given the treatment, he has a teeny fraction of a chance. A chance for _what?_ That’s not answering the question I asked-that’s just restating the same vague thing you said before, So I ask again: At best, what is it you think this experimental treatment can offer this dying child? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/84 "2017-07-07T16:32:51Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > You mean like the highest court in the country, and the final court of appeal in Europe - no, give the kid to some snake oil salesmen and their miracle! drugs (experimental). > > Really, just when you thought the US healthcare system couldn’t be more bizarre, Trump comes up with this. Well quite, if that were not bad enough that Vatican is also sticking their sticky little mitts into this as well. I suppose they are an expert on childhood suffering though. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/85 "2017-07-07T16:50:34Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Urh. **You’re behaving as despicably as Trump** in co-opting what is a Human Rights issue to serve your anti Obamacare agenda. > > Sure it would be great to leave the child in a vegetative state for years, building up all those beautiful profit- making bills, giving the very lost parents totally false hope. > > Do you really want to be known for this? For God’s sake have some dignity. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Really, just when you thought the US healthcare system couldn’t be more bizarre, **Trump comes up with this.** (my bold in the above) I’m not seeing how this is related to Trump and it seems like hijack and a way to get a shot in at other posters. In addition, you seem to be making your arguments personal, ‘behaving despicably’, ‘have some dignity’, etc. Knock it off. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/86 "2017-07-07T16:52:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s not up to the state to decide if life is worth living. This isn’t a slippery slope. It’s already at the point where I wouldn’t take a relative to a British hospital if they might be terminal. No guarantee they’ll be permitted to leave alive. I assume you don’t live in the UK. You should know that here, if there’s one institution that we cherish and trust in, it is the NHS, and comments like this would be considered not only offensive but irrational. Yesterday I brought my partner back from a minor operation at an NHS hospital. It wasn’t perfect for her- there was a bit too much waiting around- but there is no doubt she got 1st-class care for free. She’s a senior nurse herself so she knows. Perhaps you have some sort of bad feelings for UHC. Here we would be terrified of living without it. We don’t have the term ‘medical bankruptcy’ in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/87 "2017-07-07T16:55:39Z")
I find this case highlights a couple of dynamics. I have often wondered whether I believe medical technology has outpaced our ability to pay for it - at least to make it generally available. OTOH, there is the argument that cutting edge treatments pave the way for more affordable treatment later. I’m very surprised that the parents do not have sufficient authority to decide to attempt alternative treatment, or even discontinue treatment, should they wish. In this case, I really couldn’t care less about the kid. He’s a goner. Barely even a human in my mind. If the parents and their donors want to piss away millions to try to extend some low level of existence of some time, well, I suppose they should be allowed to. Not terribly concerned with the idea that their doing so will essentially torture their kid. Parent make crappy decisions all the time. But even if this treatment is “successful,” how much more ought society (NHS or insurers/policy-holders) pay as this brain damaged kid slowly dies before reaching adulthood? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/88 "2017-07-07T17:14:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A chance for _what?_ That’s not answering the question I asked-that’s just restating the same vague thing you said before, So I ask again: > At best, what is it you think this experimental treatment can offer this dying child? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/89 "2017-07-07T17:23:25Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > :rolleyes: It’s a fair question. I mean, I would assume you think the therapy might save the boy’s life but the neurologist who would perform the therapy isn’t saying that. He says Charlie is in the “terminal stage” and the therapy gives a small chance of letting him smile and look at objects. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/90 "2017-07-07T17:23:37Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > :rolleyes: And I didn’t think it is possible to be vaguer and more non-responsive than your last post. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/91 "2017-07-07T17:25:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It’s a fair question. I mean, I would assume you think the therapy might save the boy’s life but the neurologist who would perform the therapy isn’t saying that. He says Charlie is in the “terminal stage” and the therapy gives a small chance of letting him smile and look at objects. Or as I said before, a chance to properly express the amount of pain he is in. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/92 "2017-07-07T18:48:51Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > (my bold in the above) > > I’m not seeing how this is related to Trump and it seems like hijack and a way to get a shot in at other posters. In addition, you seem to be making your arguments personal, ‘behaving despicably’, ‘have some dignity’, etc. Knock it off. > > [/moderating] I don’t see what it has to do with Trump either, but poster adaher does like to make his Trumpcare case by any means possible: > [@adaher](#): > > The NHS is part of the government and seems to be exercising government authority here. > [@adaher](#): > > Is the NHS bound to respect patient’s wishes when they demand aggressive care for their terminal illnesses? Or does the “choice” only extend in one direction? Choose death or we’ll choose it for you? > [@adaher](#): > > And please, don’t try to tell me that the NHS has nothing to do with this. The fact that the government pays for it is everything in this case. If the Gards were paying for his care they’d have control over whether he stayed in the hospital or not. You’re happy with this crap, but not the poster being called on it? **As for you and me, I have tired of you on my back. Back off or ban me** - to which I know the answer because you are just that kind of guy. In fact, I’ll leave anyway because I have no respect for you, and I also feel uncomfortable with this weirdo attempt at bullying and intimidation. Goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/93 "2017-07-07T18:52:30Z")
Wow, that escalated quickly :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/94 "2017-07-07T18:54:15Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I don’t see what it has to do with Trump either, but poster adaher does like to make his Trumpcare case by any means possible: > > … > > You’re happy with this crap, but not the poster being called on it? Questions or comments about moderation belong in ATMB. Feel free to open a thread in ATMB if you wish to discuss further. No more in this thread. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/95 "2017-07-07T20:45:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Problem is, that logic just leads to deciding for competent patients as well. No it doesn’t. It certainly hasn’t in any other case of modern euthanasia. > [@adaher](#): > > Perhaps the courts should be able to decide if you can keep a pregnancy if it’s not in your best interest. And the award for most bizarrely hyperbolic and nonsensical analogy goes to… > [@](#): > > The point here isn’t whether the court is right or wrong on the question. The court is right. The question is whether it is appropriate for a court to order a patient’s death. I’m not sure that’s a fair assessment of the situation. At all. > [@](#): > > And please, don’t try to tell me that the NHS has nothing to do with this. The fact that the government pays for it is everything in this case. If the Gards were paying for his care they’d have control over whether he stayed in the hospital or not. You know what? Let’s just go with your premise here, that the NHS and the fact that the government is paying for health care is a key factor here. It’s not, given that the key dispute has to do with whether the parents can spend their own money to further torture the child, but let’s just run with it. The alternative you propose is a system in which health care is apportioned not by who needs it and where it will be effective, but rather by who can pay for it. The NHS may lead to this nonsense, but imagine Charlie Gard under your system if his parents weren’t loaded. How long of a hospital stay do you think he’d get? How many weeks could his parents afford the feeding tube before their funds ran out and the hospital had to wheel that dying child out [like (fake) Mitch McConnell in a Batman costume](http://www.clickhole.com/article/beautiful-when-7-year-old-boy-could-no-longer-affo-6296)? :rolleyes: > [@madsircool](#): > > 1930s Germany had a program doing just what you promote…[Aktion T4 - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4) > > Lebensunwertes Leben, right? My apologies for assuming that people would understand that when I speak of euthanasia, I am referring to the modern euthanasia movement, and not the _fucking nazis_. Now that the well is thoroughly poisoned, would anyone like to see if they can figure out if there’s any real difference between “it should be possible to die with dignity instead of holding out for a deadly, incurable, painful disease to take its course” and “anyone who isn’t Aryan doesn’t really deserve to live”, and then hazard a guess which position I hold? > [@madsircool](#): > > The key word here is needless. As long as there is a \>0% chance of positive treatment and the parents are willing to fight for the life of their child the government should not intervene. Doctors might be intellectually smart but they occasionally lack in emotional intelligence. So how much suffering is worth how much chance of how much improvement of quality of life? Let’s say your odds of improvement are less than 1 in 100,000, and as a result, you’re being tortured constantly. In this context, “improvement” means maybe being even slightly aware of your surroundings. Would you take those odds? It’s not that simple. It’s easy to say, “We should always fight for life,” but it’s a lot harder to actually justify such an extreme position. Usually, we should. This is one of those fringe cases where that just isn’t true. > [@Broomstick](#): > > The problem with euthanasia is the nasty, nasty history it has. I am against deliberate killing of patients because in the past it really has turned into a slippery slope and wound up extremely ugly. I’m a little confused here. When have the principles of the modern “right to death” movement ever slipped down into the kind of genocidal euthanasia practiced by the nazis? The problem with old-school euthanasia was not “We started allowing people to end their lives, and ending the lives of those who could not choose to do so due to the progress of their terminal diseases in order to prevent suffering, and slowly but surely our definition of what was worth killing crept up until we were just murdering everyone who wasn’t physically and mentally fit”. The problem with old-school euthanasia was that it _started_ at “let’s kill everyone who isn’t physically and mentally fit”, and had some utterly grotesque definitions of what that might have meant. That’s not slipping down a slippery slope, that’s starting by rolling in the mud at the bottom of a hill. > [@](#): > > On what do you base that statement? My understanding is that the child isn’t even self-aware, is it possible to be in pain if you aren’t conscious? Most animals are not self-aware, and they feel pain. > [@Fenris](#): > > Again, I wouldn’t choose this for my kid. But I’d rather let the parents make the choice than a doctor or a panel of judges. Why? The parents are less qualified than the doctors, and _way_ less objective than either the doctors or the judges. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/96 "2017-07-07T20:50:21Z")
BREAKING NEWS (I think) – [Charlie Gard may have new hope: Hospital asks court to rehear case of terminally ill infant](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/07/06/american-hospital-offers-to-admit-charlie-gard-british-baby-at-center-of-life-support-controversy/), Lindsey Bever and Alex Horton, Washington Post, July 7, 2017. Article also names the American hospital that is making this offer (in contrast to up-thread post saying that the hospital’s name is withheld “for legal reasons”), but notes that it’s unclear if this is the same hospital. > [@](#): > > The hospital caring for Charlie Gard said it has asked England’s High Court to rehear his case after researchers at two hospitals shared new evidence about an experimental therapy for his condition. > > […] > > New York-Presbyterian Hospital/Columbia University Irving Medical Center said late Thursday that it would admit and evaluate Charlie “provided that arrangements are made to safely transfer him to our facility, legal hurdles are cleared, and we receive emergency approval from the FDA for an experimental treatment as appropriate,” according to a statement to The Washington Post. > > The U.S. hospital said another option could be to ship an experimental drug to London’s Great Ormond Street Hospital, where Charlie is being treated. The American hospital said it would provide instructions on administering the drug, provided the FDA gives clearance. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/97 "2017-07-07T20:59:01Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Probably saving money and power trip. Because they have no ethical right to hold the child hostage. Obviously, a lot of people here disagree with your view wrt ethics. And disagree with the sentence “hold the child hostage”. > [@](#): > > A doctor’s job is > > A) To do what the fuck _I_ the patient (or my guardian) says And disagree also with the idea that doctors should do whatever the guardian (as opposed to the patient himself) says. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/98 "2017-07-07T23:23:06Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > More than what? More than a baby kept pointlessly in pain, and being made to endure extra suffering by the parents? Do you have a cite that substantiates the amount of pain that would experienced if the parents pursue this alternative treatment? That is, compared to taking the child off life support and allowing him to die. Honest question. I have not seen anything in the news that says the alternative treatment would cause the child to endure excessive pain and suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/99 "2017-07-08T00:08:25Z")
The hospital has applied to the court for a re-hearing, based on new evidence recently received from other medical sources. > **[U.K. hospital seeks court hearing on new Charlie Gard evidence](https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/world/u-k-hospital-seeks-court-hearing-on-new-charlie-gard-evidence-1.3492909)** > > A London children's hospital has asked a British court to assess new evidence about the condition of Charlie Gard, a terminally ill baby at the centre of a legal battle that has drawn international attention. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664/100 "2017-07-08T00:12:03Z")
I’d just like to point out that a homeopathic therapy involving concentrated hydrochloric acid would require an Olympic-sized pool with, possibly, one HCl molecule in it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-charlie-gard-case-terminally-ill-baby-and-parental-rights/790664.md?page=6)