# The Chinese and the Japanese, historically **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141 "2015-07-25T06:29:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/1 "2015-07-25T06:29:19Z")
I’ve wondered how these two peoples have gotten along–or not–over the ages; I once read that the turbulent seas and the notoriously bad weather between China and Japan has made contact between them difficult or impossible, until recent times. What’s the story? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/2 "2015-07-25T07:30:20Z")
Both countries have relations but it always hasn’t been free of tension; maybe you’ve heard of World War II and Manchuria? 🙂 There has been lots of trade and exchange of culture [and linguistics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji#On.27yomi_.28Sino-Japanese_reading.29), although at various times Japan’s insular status has limited Chinese influence. Somewhat indirectly related to China, but the seas [have proved treacherous](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_%281592%E2%80%9398%29). ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/3 "2015-07-25T09:58:46Z")
They are not getting on real good right now: “There has been an increasingly large dislike, hatred and hostility between Japanese people and Chinese people alike in recent years. According to a 2014 BBC World Service Poll, 3% of Japanese people view China’s influence positively, with 73% expressing a negative view, the most negative perception of China in the world, while 5% of Chinese people view Japanese influence positively, with 90% expressing a negative view, the most negative perception of Japan in the world.[3]” > **[China–Japan relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan_relations)** > > China–Japan relations or Sino–Japanese relations (simplified Chinese: 中日关系; traditional Chinese: 中日關係; pinyin: Zhōngrì guānxì; Japanese: 日中関係, romanized: Nitchū kankei) are the bilateral relations between China and Japan. The countries are geographically separated by the East China Sea. Japan has been strongly influenced throughout its history by China, especially by the East and Southeast through the gradual process of Sinicization with its language, architecture, culture, cuisine, religion, phi... Historically hasn’t been much love between them either, they have fought wars with each other on and off since at least 600 AD. (But yes there was also constant trade and cultural exchange the whole time as well). > **[History of China–Japan relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sino-Japanese_relations)** > > The history of China–Japan relations share a long history dating back thousands of years through trade, cultural exchanges, friendships, and conflicts. Japan has deep historical and cultural ties with China; cultural contacts throughout its history have strongly influenced the nation – including its writing system\[a\] architecture,\[b\] cuisine,\[c\] culture, literature, religion,\[d\] philosophy, and law. > Large-scale trade between the two nations began in the 1860s. Many Chinese students had also stu... ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/4 "2015-07-25T19:48:26Z")
As I understand it, both have creation myths that their offspring (in one case, star-crossed lovers escaping) inhabited and populated the other. So each claims to be the parent (and thereby, of course, superior) to the other. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/5 "2015-07-25T20:03:52Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > As I understand it, both have creation myths that their offspring (in one case, star-crossed lovers escaping) inhabited and populated the other. > So each claims to be the parent (and thereby, of course, superior) to the other. Do you have some documentation? ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/6 "2015-07-25T21:40:02Z")
Nope - just talking to people. One of whom was born and raised in Hong Kong. Others from PRC and a second-gen Japanese. Never sought to document the veracity. Hence, the AIUI. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/7 "2015-07-25T21:46:41Z")
Thanks. Oh–do you know the Chinese (Mandarin, I guess) words for “Russia” and “Japan”, in Pinyin and traditional Roman spelling? I’m not sure how they’re rendered, let alone how to pronounce them… ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/8 "2015-07-25T22:25:39Z")
According to my dictionary, Russia is eguo (e2guo2 with tones) and Japan is riben (ri4ben3). Interesting that Japan doesn’t end with guo like most country names; I guess because it’s a more ancient word than the word for most other countries. Not sure what you mean by “traditional Roman spelling” – Wade-Giles? –Mark ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/9 "2015-07-25T22:40:56Z")
I meant that in Pinyin, a well-known Chinese name, for example, would be Mao Zedong, but in traditional Roman spelling it would be Mao Tse-Tung. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/10 "2015-07-25T22:59:32Z")
Well, there was this [one](http://www.gendercide.org/case_nanking.html) [little](http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/nanking.htm) [incident](http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/nanking.htm) in the 1930s. (Warning, some of the pictures are rather graphic) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/11 "2015-07-25T23:07:29Z")
More on the Nanking Massacre: [http://www.nanking](http://www.nanking) -massacre.com/Home.html. (VERY graphic images, but since it’s a historical incident, I’m guessing it would be considered okay, since it’s educational. However, I took the courtesy of breaking the link) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/12 "2015-07-26T01:44:24Z")
This is anecdotal. When I was in Japan, my host took me to a museum. One of the exhibits was a copy of a letter sent a long time ago whose opening was translated as, “From the emperor of the rising sun to the emperor of the setting sun” and my host assured that those images meant the same thing in Japanese, Chinese, and English. This didn’t go over too well with the Chinese. Obviously Japan got its writing and a lot of its culture from Chinese and resent it. These are just historical anecdotes. Make of them what you will. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/13 "2015-07-26T02:10:40Z")
Did the Chinese think that “emperor of the setting sun” connoted something more Occidental than the Japanese conception? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/14 "2015-07-26T02:29:54Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Did the Chinese think that “emperor of the setting sun” connoted something more Occidental than the Japanese conception? It looked like the Japanese meant it just as the Chinese took it: that China was on a downslide. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/15 "2015-07-26T03:28:27Z")
Maybe that’s why the modern Japanese word for “China” is \*Shina. \* ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/16 "2015-07-26T03:30:11Z")
Interestingly, our own words “orient” and “occident” are just Latin for “rising sun” and “setting sun”. –Mark ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/17 "2015-07-26T03:41:16Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I meant that in Pinyin, a well-known Chinese name, for example, would be Mao Zedong, but in traditional Roman spelling it would be Mao Tse-Tung. Yes, that’s Wade-Giles, a mostly obsolete Romanization system. Sorry, I never learned it; when I studied Mandarin around 1975 we already used only pinyin. –Mark ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/18 "2015-07-26T03:49:36Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > According to my dictionary, Russia is eguo (e2guo2 with tones) and Japan is riben (ri4ben3). Interesting that Japan doesn’t end with guo like most country names; I guess because it’s a more ancient word than the word for most other countries. Not sure what you mean by “traditional Roman spelling” – Wade-Giles? > > –Mark Additional, pointless trivia : ri4ben3 literally means “origin of the Sun” - so the Chinese share the whole “land of the rising sun” image with their neighbours. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/19 "2015-07-26T04:35:04Z")
I taught in China for 2 years and the history teachers would show the 11 and 12 year old children fully graphic pictures of the rape of Nanjing. The kids would write about their feelings and it was overwhelmingly negative. The kids were obviously influenced to write hateful things. This was no regular Chinese school, either. It was a wealthy school(6000USD/year) school. When I was there, a huge textbook controversy was brewing because Japan was changing their textbooks to minimize mentions of the terrors of WW2. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/20 "2015-07-26T15:10:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Additional, pointless trivia : ri4ben3 literally means “origin of the Sun” - so the Chinese share the whole “land of the rising sun” image with their neighbours. Is there a literal meaning to the word for “Russia”? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141.md?page=2)