# The Chinese and the Japanese, historically **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141 "2015-07-25T06:29:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/21 "2015-07-26T15:12:59Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I taught in China for 2 years and the history teachers would show the 11 and 12 year old children fully graphic pictures of the rape of Nanjing. The kids would write about their feelings and it was overwhelmingly negative. The kids were obviously influenced to write hateful things. This was no regular Chinese school, either. It was a wealthy school(6000USD/year) school. > > When I was there, a huge textbook controversy was brewing because Japan was changing their textbooks to minimize mentions of the terrors of WW2. $6000? Is that tuition? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/22 "2015-07-26T15:40:39Z")
$6000 US ayear is a lot of money in China. Yeah that’s about right for a private international school in a 2nd tier Chinese city. More in Shanghai / Beijing of course. See here: [http://www.shanghaifinder.com/schools.html](http://www.shanghaifinder.com/schools.html) low end is $6000 US a year. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/23 "2015-07-26T17:11:03Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Is there a literal meaning to the word for “Russia”? Land of the Rus. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/24 "2015-07-26T17:45:18Z")
It seems to me that the relationship between China and Japan is somewhat similar to the relationship between Russia and Germany, for similar reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/25 "2015-07-26T17:53:01Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I’ve wondered how these two peoples have gotten along–or not–over the ages; I once read that the turbulent seas and the notoriously bad weather between China and Japan has made contact between them difficult or impossible, until recent times. What’s the story? No, that’s an exaggeration. It’s not that difficult to sail from Japan to China and at times [pirates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou) of various ( and disputed ) ethnicity were a serious plague on both coasts. Similarly there was regular trade up until the Tokugawa period in the 17th century when the new policy of Japanese isolationism largely ( but not entirely ) brought it to an end. Politically and culturally the Chinese had a very significant impact on the early Japanese court in particular and at times also appeared as a looming threat. Not just in the Mongol period either. The expansionist T’ang were regarded with particular concern at one point. In general relations were about the same as between any two substantial semi-neighboring powers with the caveat that China was always the 800 lb gorilla in their relations with _everybody_ up until the 18th-19th century. Sheer size and wealth meant that the always held the whip hand and more cultural innovation radiated out than in ( not that there wasn’t a two-way exchange, but again China usually had a head start ). ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/26 "2015-07-26T18:19:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Land of the Rus. And what is “Rus”? Was that just a proper noun in Chinese meaning “Russian (person)”? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/27 "2015-07-26T18:25:33Z")
Factoid: The German for “Russia” is \*Rußland, \* apparently having the same literal meaning as the Chinese word. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/28 "2015-07-26T18:27:29Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > And what is “Rus”? Was that just a proper noun in Chinese meaning “Russian (person)”? “According to the most prevalent theory, the name Rus '​, like the Finnish name for Sweden (Ruotsi), is derived from an Old Norse term for “the men who row” (rods-) as rowing was the main method of navigating the rivers of Eastern Europe” > **[Rus' people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_people)** > > The Rus',\[a\] also known as Russes, were a people in early medieval Eastern Europe. The scholarly consensus holds that they were originally Norsemen, mainly originating from present-day Sweden, who settled and ruled along the river-routes between the Baltic and the Black Seas from around the 8th to 11th centuries AD. > In the 9th century, they formed the state of Kievan Rusʹ, where the ruling Norsemen along with local Finnic tribes gradually assimilated into the East Slavic population, with Old E... ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/29 "2015-07-26T19:29:23Z")
If I remember my Japanese history lessons, a fair number of Japanese scholars traveled to China, through Korea, to learn from the older culture, including writing. This flourished starting maybe around the 4th century. They brought back lots of stuff including the Chinese way of writing, and also a large Chinese vocabulary. The Japanese adapted the Chinese writing system to correspond to existing Japanese words/pronunciations, but educated people also continued to use the Chinese words and pronunciations. So in current Japanese many characters have two pronunciations, the original Chinese (not exactly, of course, there are no tones, and over time the pronunciations have migrated some) and the native Japanese. Which one is used depends on context. Most of the time since then, up to the 19th century, relations have mostly been scholarly exchange, religion and trade. The Mongol dynasty did try to invade Kyushu twice, and were driven off and/or wrecked by great typhoons (supposed to be the origin of Divine Wind, or kamikaze). In the 16th century Japan tried to invade Korea a couple of times, unsuccessfully - the intent, I believe was to continue on and conquer China. Other than that, some blustering and boasting may have gone on but that’s as far as it went. Then Japan “modernized” after 1868 and saw China as weak and as a source of raw materials and other forms of wealth. The history of the 20th century, if told honestly, is not kind to Japan with regard to China (and others), no matter how much they may deny the worst of it. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/30 "2015-07-26T19:34:54Z")
Well, considering the events in places such as Manchuria after 1930 I’m not surprised. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/31 "2015-07-27T01:24:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, there was this [one](http://www.gendercide.org/case_nanking.html) [little](http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/nanking.htm) [incident](http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/nanking.htm) in the 1930s. (Warning, some of the pictures are rather graphic) As well as the Nanking massacre there’s Unit 731, who did horrific medical experiments on Chinese, Korean and Mongolian prisoners: > **[Unit 731](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731)** > > Unit 731 (Japanese: 731部隊, Hepburn: Nana-san-ichi Butai),\[note 1\] short for Manchu Detachment 731 and also known as the Kamo Detachment: 198  and the Ishii Unit, was a covert biological and chemical warfare research and development unit of the Imperial Japanese Army that engaged in lethal human experimentation and biological weapons manufacturing during the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937–1945) and World War II. Estimates vary as to how many were killed. Between 1936 and 1945, roughly 14,000 Est... And to top it off: “Instead of being tried for war crimes, the researchers involved in Unit 731 were given immunity in exchange for their data on human experimentation.[10] Some were arrested by Soviet forces and tried at the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials in 1949. Americans did not try the researchers so that the information and experience gained in bio-weapons could be co-opted into the U.S. biological warfare program.[11]” ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/32 "2015-07-27T03:18:37Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > According to my dictionary, Russia is eguo (e2guo2 with tones) and Japan is riben (ri4ben3). My dictionary also says e2guo2, but in conversation I’ve only ever heard e2luo2si1 (which is clearly a loanword…well, “clearly” if you’re used to the chinese logic of loanwords). Possibly a spoken vs written word thing ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/33 "2015-07-27T03:29:00Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > And what is “Rus”? [**The Rus**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus%27_people). Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Most Western scholars believe them to be a group of Varangians, specifically Norsemen. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/34 "2016-11-24T17:36:25Z")
As Markn+ noted, the Chinese word for “Russian” was “eguo”; I guess I should have been clearer about asking where the Chinese got _that_ word. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/35 "2016-11-24T18:02:31Z")
The word “guo” just means “country”, and is appended to many country names. America = “Meiguo”. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/36 "2016-11-24T18:58:46Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Maybe that’s why the modern Japanese word for “China” is \*Shina. \* Since when? When I lived in Japan in the 1990s, the Japanese word for China was ちゅうごく (Chyuugoku), and AFAIK, that’s the word still in current use. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/37 "2016-11-24T19:21:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The word “guo” just means “country”, and is appended to many country names. America = “Meiguo”. But how about the \*first \* syllable _(e)?_ ---
**Author:** ![Banksiaman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banksiaman/32/3334_2.png) [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/38 "2016-11-24T20:19:37Z")
Back to the original question, some fundamental aspects of Japanese culture, particularly kanji writing, the position of emperor and structure of social power were strongly influenced by Chinese example. Despite that, there has been a strong ideology of Japanese exceptionalism, which has tended to downplay this and emphasise the differences that demarcate Japanese and Chinese (and Korean) culture. The main counter-tendency has been Buddhism, where the local variant that integrates Shinto still looks westwards for its inspiration and connections. Deliberate Japanese isolation from foreign influence, include the folk just next door, has been a common historical theme and has tended to colour all its relations. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/39 "2016-11-24T20:26:13Z")
It seems that the sound “Rus” gained a prepended vowel sound in the Mongolian language, making “Oros”. [http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article\_en/CJFDTotal-SAGA201301012.htm](http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTotal-SAGA201301012.htm) > **[Chinese History](https://books.google.com/books?id=ERnrQq0bsPYC&pg=PA730&lpg=PA730&dq=oros%2Bmongolian%2Beluosi&source=bl&ots=3vibefKL31&sig=mNuMwWApqN1AxEO_I7ross_eKpw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPt5yCnsLQAhWhhFQKHb5yDfkQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=oros%20mongolian%20eluosi&f=false)** > > Since publication of the first edition in 1998, Chinese History: A Manual has become an indispensable guide to researching the civilization and history of China. Updated through January 2000, the second edition discusses some 4,300 primary,... The Mongolian Oros was rendered 俄罗斯 = Éluósī in Chinese. It may not look like it, but those sounds in Chinese imitate the sound of “Oros”. These are three characters that are commonly used for such transliteration - they do have other meanings, but here they are just being used to transliterate (make a “loanword”), only their sound is relevant. So, the two words for Russia are: 俄罗斯 = Éluósī, derived from the sound of “Rus” via Mongolian “Oros” 俄国 = Éguó, made by abbreviating the above and adding the character for “nation”. Also the word for Japan: 日本 is exactly the same two characters in both Japanese and Chinese (“sun”+“origin”), just pronounced differently. So, the words for Russia and Japan in Chinese are just taken (indirectly and directly) from the words that those countries use themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Mangosteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mangosteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangosteen)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/40 "2016-11-24T21:50:10Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > But how about the \*first \* syllable _(e)?_ 俄罗斯 (é luó sī) is the “official” name of the country of Russia in Mandarin Chinese. 俄国 (É guó) is just an abbreviation. (Do you see that the first character (俄) is the same?) 俄 (É ) in this context has no meaning and is just used to try to match the pronunciation of the word “Russia” in English. In fact the official, 俄罗斯 (é luó sī), also has no meaning and is just used to try to copy the English pronunciation. When used in Mandarin 俄 means “suddenly” or “very soon”, but again it is only used for pronunciation purposes when applied to the country of Russia. BTW “America” is pronounced Měiguó 美国. Měi means “beautiful” but the character is just used to try and match the pronunciation of the country. It was not chosen because China thought that America was a “beautiful” country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141.md?page=3)