# The Chinese and the Japanese, historically **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 25, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141 "2015-07-25T06:29:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/41 "2016-11-24T22:02:10Z")
Oh. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/42 "2016-11-24T22:04:56Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Oh. No, É. (My prior post that Mangosteen missed was also an answer to you, and explains where the É sound came from.) ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/43 "2016-11-24T22:34:20Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > No, É. > > (My prior post that Mangosteen missed was also an answer to you, and explains where the É sound came from.) This reminds me of the title of a Danny Kaye baseball song. 😃 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/44 "2016-11-24T22:39:43Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > This reminds me of the title of a Danny Kaye baseball song. 😃 😉 And the Abbott and Costello sketch would make a bit more sense for a Chinese baseball team, since Hu is a family name. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/45 "2016-11-25T05:47:41Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And the Abbott and Costello sketch would make a bit more sense for a Chinese baseball team, since Hu is a family name. I never thought of that! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/46 "2016-11-25T14:16:35Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > And the Abbott and Costello sketch would make a bit more sense for a Chinese baseball team, since Hu is a family name. [FYI](http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/whos-on-first.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/47 "2016-11-25T14:19:47Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Since when? When I lived in Japan in the 1990s, the Japanese word for China was ちゅうごく (Chyuugoku), and AFAIK, that’s the word still in current use. Yeah, I’m watching Yuri on Ice right now and 中国 seems to still be dominant. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/48 "2016-11-25T14:56:25Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Yeah, I’m watching Yuri on Ice right now and 中国 seems to still be dominant. When I lived in Japan that was how I’d see “China” written, and I believe the Chinese themselves use the same characters for the name of their country. They literally mean “middle/central country”. I don’t remember ever encountering “Shina” as a name for China before, but a quick Google turned up a [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shina_%28word%29) saying this is archaic Japanese and is now considered offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/49 "2016-11-25T15:45:58Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > When I lived in Japan that was how I’d see “China” written, and I believe the Chinese themselves use the same characters for the name of their country. They literally mean “middle/central country”. > > I don’t remember ever encountering “Shina” as a name for China before, but a quick Google turned up a [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shina_%28word%29) saying this is archaic Japanese and is now considered offensive. As general note to this discussion, maybe the point was made before but I didn’t see it: the Chinese and Japanese words for a lot of things, including the names of both countries, seem similar because they come from Chinese. The Japanese adopted the Chinese system of writing, and many words came with it. That’s what ‘kanji’ are\*. In Japanese, Chinese characters are also used to represent indigenous words, in which case they have a different pronunciation than the one used when they represent Chinese derived words. But for example the Japanese name for Japan, Nihon, is the same as the ‘Chinese’ word, pronounced something like Riben in Mandarin, 日本, no weird coincidence that they sound somewhat similar. Same with 中國 for China in both languages, and lots of other words. One non-insidious reason though to use another word for China in Japanese is that 中國, chugoku, also refers to the region of western Honshu around Hiroshima. Another twist is that some Chinese character pairings used as words in modern Chinese were coined in Japan. That’s true of a fair number of Western words in the political and technical spheres for which Chinese character equivalents were first coined in Japan in the late 19th century, like ‘democracy’ for example, or ‘destroyer’ (the type of warship). Also note that the China\>Japan flow of writing/words sometimes went through Korea which modified some things. Likewise words which are Japanese coinages of Chinese characters are even more widespread in Korean than in Chinese. If a word is the same in Chinese and Japanese it’s almost gteed to be the same in Korean also, but in many cases Korean and Japanese share words where a different pair of Chinese characters are used, or the Korean/Japanese coinage is a less used option, in modern Chinese. \*the differences among modern Japanese forms of characters, traditional Chinese (which you can see I type in) and simplified PRC forms are comparable to the difference in Latin letters between say old Gothic and modern fonts: they are still the same letters, ie 國 and 国, ‘country’, are the same character, . There are a small number of kanji invented in Japan, but when/if Japanese say, as IME they sometimes do, that kanji and hanzi aren’t the same thing they are mainly hanging that on the technicality that the particular forms used since WWII are different. Prewar that wasn’t even as true, and that’s only a few decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/50 "2016-11-25T16:05:21Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > As general note to this discussion, maybe the point was made before but I didn’t see it: the Chinese and Japanese words for a lot of things, including the names of both countries, seem similar because they come from Chinese. **Roderick Femm** did actually [cover this already](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18550121&postcount=29). ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/51 "2016-11-25T16:39:02Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > …the Japanese name for Japan, Nihon, is the same as the ‘Chinese’ word, pronounced something like Riben in Mandarin, 日本, no weird coincidence that they sound somewhat similar… It’s worth adding that “Japan” possibly _also_ came from yet another pronunciation of the same two characters in a southern Chinese dialect, via Marco Polo. ---
**Author:** ![Me\_Billy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Me\_Billy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Me_Billy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/52 "2016-11-25T16:54:08Z")
In 1274, the Great Khan of China “declared his resolve to conquer the island” [of Japan]… > **[Cipangu's landlocked isles](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2008/07/27/to-be-sorted/cipangus-landlocked-isles/)** > > Thirteenth-century Japan has this in common with early 19th-century Japan: a land culture paying scant heed to the sea until the sea, as though in outrage, ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/53 "2016-11-25T18:58:41Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > When I lived in Japan that was how I’d see “China” written, and I believe the Chinese themselves use the same characters for the name of their country. They literally mean “middle/central country”. > > I don’t remember ever encountering “Shina” as a name for China before, but a quick Google turned up a [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shina_%28word%29) saying this is archaic Japanese and is now considered offensive. I had found the word _Shina_ in _The World’s Chief Languages,_ by Mario Pei, originally published just after World War II (70+ years ago); I had no idea the word had become “offensive.” The book also said that the Japanese name for Australia was _Gōshū;_ however, I know someone who has a Japanese mother, and he says that that is an archaic name for the country. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/54 "2016-11-25T19:11:48Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I had found the word _Shina_ in _The World’s Chief Languages,_ by Mario Pei, originally published just after World War II (70+ years ago); I had no idea the word had become “offensive.” … Only 70 years:) I am now envisioning you collecting faggots for your fire with your negro friend while listening to music on your tranny. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/55 "2016-11-25T19:14:58Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Only 70 years:) > I am now envisioning you collecting faggots for your fire with your negro friend while listening to music on your tranny. So funny I forgot to laugh. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/56 "2016-11-25T19:16:53Z")
What’s more, my car’s transmission doesn’t play music. What kind of music does _your_ car’s tranny play? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/57 "2016-11-25T19:44:19Z")
We’ll call it a whoosh, then. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/58 "2016-11-25T21:08:49Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I had found the word _Shina_ in _The World’s Chief Languages,_ by Mario Pei, originally published just after World War II (70+ years ago); I had no idea the word had become “offensive.” The book also said that the Japanese name for Australia was _Gōshū;_ however, I know someone who has a Japanese mother, and he says that that is an archaic name for the country. It seems to have became perceived as offensive due its use by the Japanese in describing their aggression in China as the ‘China (using ‘Shina’) Incident’, and general preference for the term by the Japanese in the militarist period. Historical Japanese language websites from Japan still use the term, I’m not sure how offensive it’s viewed as in that kind of historical context. But in general it’s definitely perceived as offensive. In fact in the recent controversy over pro-independence Hong Kong elected council members refusing to take the standard oath of office, at least one of them referred to the PRC in his own improvised oath by that term: it was intended to be, and succeeded in being, inflammatory. Otherwise, there’s a trend in modern Japanese usage to no longer use the two Chinese character abbreviations (coined by the Japanese) for foreign non-Asian countries but instead spell them out phonetically in katakana. So you now rarely see 濠洲 Goshu for Australia, but rather just spelled out オーストラリア ōsutoraria, in katakana. Same with Ah-me-ri-ka instead of 米國 / Beigoku. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141/59 "2016-11-27T12:57:49Z")
Far-right wing politicians in Japan, such as Shintaro Ishihara, the former governor of Tokyo, use “Shina.” I never heard anyone use it in common speech. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chinese-and-the-japanese-historically/726141.md?page=2)