# The Christian Choate case: positively sickening **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 4, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768 "2011-07-04T00:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/41 "2011-07-06T18:58:20Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Someone reported the family again for holding the boy a prisoner, I guess they let him out long enough for an appearance before the case worker who checked it off “unsubstantiated” then back in the cage he went. If I were that case worker I’d kill myself. Why, exactly? You don’t think that people who are sociopathic enough to torture a child over a span of YEARS aren’t sociopathic enough to clean up the place for CPS and threaten to break the kid’s knees if he tells them the truth? Social workers are overworked and vastly constrained by the rules of The System (TM, pat. pend., etc), which include providing a certain number of days of notice prior to making a visit. They aren’t allowed to visit spontaneously and observe common living conditions; it’s my educated guess because this would result in having to house and place many, many more children and the government is loath to take on that burden (even if it is better for the children in the end). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/42 "2011-07-06T19:10:52Z")
> [@omni-not](#): > > The official verdict was ‘Not criminally responsible because of a mental disorder’ Certainly. That’s because of the phrasing of section 16 of the Criminal Code, which is Canada’s codification of the old M’Naghten Rules for determining if someone is insane for legal purposes. However, s. 16 acts as an absolute defence. If you are insane, you can’t also be guilty - because “guilty” only apples to people who have the necessary mental element. “Guilt” implies a guilty mind, which a (legally) crazy person cannot have. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/43 "2011-07-06T19:53:44Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Why, exactly? You don’t think that people who are sociopathic enough to torture a child over a span of YEARS aren’t sociopathic enough to clean up the place for CPS and threaten to break the kid’s knees if he tells them the truth? And you don’t think that a kid who is subjected to this kind of treatment might be convinced by his parents that something even more terrible than what is happening to him now will happen if he tells a caseworker what’s happening to him? Stockholm syndrome is common, even when captors abuse their captives. I doubt most people would be entirely sane, if treated this way. It’s not too surprising that this kid might have various kinds of distorted thinking. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/44 "2011-07-06T20:03:14Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Why, exactly? You don’t think that people who are sociopathic enough to torture a child over a span of YEARS aren’t sociopathic enough to clean up the place for CPS and threaten to break the kid’s knees if he tells them the truth? > > Social workers are overworked and vastly constrained by the rules of The System (TM, pat. pend., etc), which include providing a certain number of days of notice prior to making a visit. They aren’t allowed to visit spontaneously and observe common living conditions; it’s my educated guess because this would result in having to house and place many, many more children and the government is loath to take on that burden (even if it is better for the children in the end). Oh, no doubt the adults threatened to make things even worse if the boy talked. What kind of worthless piece of shit social worker can’t smell something wrong? Home schooling? There is no oversight? No one ever checks the kid’s work or academic progress? One of the themes the boy repeatedly wrote about in his dog cage was why no one ever came to check on him. Ever. “When will someone come check?” he wrote. The poor, tired, overworked, underpaid case worker probably never bothered to stop by. I’m really sick of hearing about tired overworked, underpaid social workers. Fuck them and the whole state their fat, twinkie-eating paid for doing nothing and no better than the trash whose children they’re supposed to be protecting asses rode in on. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/45 "2011-07-06T20:09:54Z")
So do you have a plan of action or are you just gonna run your mouth? ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/46 "2011-07-06T20:12:53Z")
The possibility of unannounced visits by social workers in certain circumstances should be passed into law, and said visits should be, shall we say, a bit more…\*\* thorough\*\*? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/47 "2011-07-06T20:15:13Z")
As long as we’re dreaming, I’d like a pony. ---
**Author:** ![Redwing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@Redwing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redwing)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/48 "2011-07-06T21:05:05Z")
> [@omni-not](#): > > The possibility of unannounced visits by social workers in certain circumstances should be passed into law, and said visits should be, shall we say, a bit more…\*\* thorough\*\*? Great idea. Why don’t you work on getting funding to be able to pay for what DCF is supposed to do under their current rules? Then, once you’ve got that taken care of, figure out how to limit and control the powers you want to give them, then you can figure out how to pay for the training to handle the additional load, then after all that, we need to fund the extra people to handle load that this will impose. Or, do think that because it’s horrific, heartrending things happening to children that the cash will simply appear? ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/49 "2011-07-06T21:33:44Z")
Or we could of course leave things exactly as they are. The system seems to be working at peak efficiency. ---
**Author:** ![RingsOfPylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3da27b/32.png) [@RingsOfPylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RingsOfPylon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/50 "2011-07-07T12:59:16Z")
This is one of the saddest things I’ve ever seen. I rarely cry, and haven’t in years, but this made me blubber like a baby. Such a beautiful little boy whose life was sheer hell. The entire situation is completely beyond imagination, and I find myself mourning this child’s life and death as if he were my own. You read about all sorts of heinous things and you have to try to give them a context and a rationale; not as something excusable, but something where you can understand the dynamics and explain it to yourself. There’s no such comfort here. I’m at a complete loss. These “parents” are monsters who created a house of horrors for the children in their charge, and especially for Christian. Where was the rest of the family - the extended family such as aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents? I’m glad that others may be charged as the investigation continues. There are quite a few people who have some explaining to do. Cases like this certainly could provide an argument for the death penalty. However, the death penalty would be too easy for these folks. There should be a “torture penalty” reserved for these people and others of their ilk. Long, slow, unpredictable episodes of torture with no end in sight. I would volunteer my services and take up contributions to implement such a program. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/51 "2011-07-08T11:33:14Z")
> [@omni-not](#): > > The possibility of unannounced visits by social workers in certain circumstances should be passed into law, ? What kind of circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/52 "2011-07-08T20:10:13Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > What kind of circumstances? Well, it would seem that Riley Choate had something like eight assault charges against him, before they found his son’s body (I read this figure in some article which I can’t locate now that I’m searching for it). And in the Dugaard case, some 60 complaints had been lodged over the years against the man and woman who had kidnapped Jaycee. I’m thinking that, at some point, little bells should start ringing… We’re not talking about isolated incidents here; we’re talking about instances where case histories are getting a bit thick. I fully realize that budgets and human resources are insufficient, but I also realize that, too often, innocent (young) lives are paying the price. ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/53 "2011-07-09T20:57:59Z")
this shit happens all the time. hate to say it, but it does. the saddest part is that most of the guilty parties are fundamentalist religious types. In fact, i’ve never heard of atheists doing stuff like this. I’m probably wrong on that last statement, but IME from listening to my mom talk about the abused kids who came to her neurology office, they were almost always fundy christians. It got worse when she became a court appointed child advocate. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/54 "2011-07-10T06:25:43Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > There’s a lot of awful things that happen in the world, and for whatever reason, some people like to post them in the pit so that the rest of the board can loudly express their disapproval of things that pretty much every sane person strongly disapproves of, such as fathers keeping their children in cages and then beating them to death. There’s usually a lot of posts like post #14, with (sometimes bizarrely elaborate and detailed) fantasies of doing bodily harm to the perpetrators. > > That genre of thread is “Recreational Outrage”, I’m pretty sure there’s no rule against it, but it strikes a lot of dopers as kinda silly, so they usually drop by to point it out. #14- "Ordinarily I don’t want to beat people until thier eyes explode but there are exceptions. I think that’s a defense mechanism to keep from thinking about all the hurt the boy suffered though. Poor little guy." Really? There are a lot of posts where the respondents go on to recognize the psychological urge behind such strong reactions? Good then. I could have gone on to explain how it is based in powerlessness and a reaction to that. Somehow I don’t think it would have done any good as those who label it “recreational outrage” would have no hope in understanding. Suffice to say it is a vent and usually a healthy one when it works as a pressure valve to keep things of that nature from coming to fruition. It never ceases to amaze me how those who extend the courtesy of understanding to the worst elements cannot do so to those trying to survive those worst elements and come through mentaly sound. I understand exactly why folks post those “awful things”. They are trying to wrap thier heads around the people they have to exist with in society and hoping for insight and a sort of hug and “me too” out of folks as an affirmation that most hurt for the weakest and most innocent among us as they do. Mostly they don’t need a damn lecture. ---
**Author:** ![hocow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hocow/32/4112_2.png) [@hocow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hocow)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/55 "2011-07-11T10:58:59Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Social workers are overworked and vastly constrained by the rules of The System (TM, pat. pend., etc), which include providing a certain number of days of notice prior to making a visit. **They aren’t allowed to visit spontaneously and observe common living condition** s; it’s my educated guess because this would result in having to house and place many, many more children and the government is loath to take on that burden (even if it is better for the children in the end). Bolding mine. I know this may differ from state to state, but here in PA, all CYS investigations begin with unannounced visits. This includes abuse and neglect. The problem lies in the fact that the family has the right to not let you in the house. Sometimes, you have no choice but to schedule a visit with the family, or attempt to get a court order for their compliance. This obviously takes time, and those who are “system savvy” know this. ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/56 "2011-07-11T11:41:48Z")
> [@hocow](#): > > Bolding mine. > > I know this may differ from state to state, but here in PA, all CYS investigations begin with unannounced visits. This includes abuse and neglect. The problem lies in the fact that the family has the right to not let you in the house. Sometimes, you have no choice but to schedule a visit with the family, or attempt to get a court order for their compliance. This obviously takes time, and those who are “system savvy” know this. So then, and I _do_ realize this is a more than obvious question but, what is the friggin point of unannounced visits if the family has the right not to let you in the house??:mad: Especially if it has the potential effect of worsening an already bad situation afterwards. Once again, we can count on the law to side with the victims:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768/57 "2011-07-11T23:44:58Z")
Just finished watching the Dugard interview on ABC. The ineptitude of the authorities in that case simply boggles the mind: 60 complaints over the years, and not once had anyone during any of the visits felt it necessary to check the backyard of the residence. The sheriff department’s visit seems to have limited itself to a few questions asked at the front door, even after neighbors had specifically pointed out that children were living in a tent. So, no, I’m not exactly flabbergasted to read that the visits at the Choate residence yielded nothing, if we are to assume that the scenario of the perfunctory look-around was also followed in this case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-choate-case-positively-sickening/587768.md?page=2)