# The Christian Right and Democracy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334 "2010-04-07T21:22:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![NotreDame05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90ced4/32.png) [@NotreDame05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotreDame05)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/21 "2010-04-09T18:42:22Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It seems to me you could make a very strong argument that fundamentalist Christian Right wingers (anti abortionists and their ilk) are anti democratic, in a most unpatriotic sort of way. > > What I mean is, they were all about majority over morality as long as they were in the majority. The enslavement of blacks is a good example. The morality of it wasn’t their issue, so long as they were in the majority it was all just good democracy in action. Ditto on segregation, again their fall back was democratic majority, morality be damned. > > But now that they aren’t in the majority, it’s all about the morality. > > Abortion is a perfect example, it seems to me. Times have changed and the abortion laws were changed by democratically elected majorities and/or their appointees. > > I find it odd that the fundamentalists are such red, white and blue patriots but can’t support their democracy when it doesn’t go their way. > > I’m not saying they have to like it, or that they can’t rally people to make the changes they like to see. But how can they call themselves patriots when they can’t accept the outcome unless it goes their way? I disagree with your assumption to be patriotic means one must accept an outcome they find unfavorable. Of course, the word “accept” is not defined by you, so I will just rely upon the general dictionary definition of “to endure without protest or reaction.” Webster’s dictionary. If this is the meaning you had in mind, then there are few patriots in America. Jefferson and Madison were not patriots for publicly protesting the Alien and Sedition Act of the Adams administration. Similarly, the two of them are not patriots for objecting to the creation of a national bank. One can be a patriot while celebrating or protesting the laws of this nation. > [@](#): > > Isn’t the core of patriotism standing by the right of the majority to decide what’s best, regardless of whether it agrees with your personal view? Well, I do not know exactly what you mean by, “standing by the right of the majority to decide what’s best”? Does this mean one must be mute and cannot publicly denounce the law? Does this mean when someone has a disagreement with a law, or sees injustice in the law, they must remain silent because the majority said so? Tenatively, I think this is not a very good understanding of patriotism. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/22 "2010-04-14T12:01:56Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > The Christian response to a woman with an unwanted pregnancy is to love and support the woman and her child before considering any other thing. That really doesn’t describe our legal situation. The laws of men are not supposed to have precedence to the dedicated follower of Christ, but the social cost of disobedience is similarly not supposed to have precedence over the choice to do God’s will, rather than obey Man’s laws. None of these are democratic in their foundation. When you decide to love God and Country, you have to be responsible for both of those choices, to both of those masters, and you will fail. > > Accepting your personal responsibilities doesn’t mean you will live in a comfortable home, with good food, and an SUV. It means you will give up all those things, rather than fail to follow the will of God, and accept the civil consequences if you disobey the Law of the Land, without harming those who choose differently. Love, always choose love. Of course, you won’t win many elections. > > Tris Since it is impossible to know the will of God, just what some humans say is the word of God makes that rather moot. What a human one wants to believe is an other story. There is nothing that can prove God, said, or did anything, except by Faith, and our government must remain secular to protect one religion or none from the other. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/23 "2010-04-14T13:35:24Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Since it is impossible to know the will of God, just what some humans say is the word of God makes that rather moot. What a human one wants to believe is an other story. There is nothing that can prove God, said, or did anything, except by Faith, and our government must remain secular to protect one religion or none from the other. It is only moot when you try to use it control what someone else is doing. Make of your heart a dwelling place for the Lord. Love Him, Love each soul you meet in the world as if that was Him. When the law is at odds with that intent, then seek your intent, without fear of the law. They can take from you nothing but your life, your liberty, and your property. These things are trivial. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/24 "2010-04-14T14:01:55Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It seems to me you could make a very strong argument that fundamentalist Christian Right wingers (anti abortionists and their ilk) are anti democratic, in a most unpatriotic sort of way. I couldn’t get past the first sentence of the OP. Are you saying that all anti-abortion advocates are “fundamentalist Christian Right wingers”? Because that’s demonstrably untrue. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/25 "2010-04-14T14:03:10Z")
This can be true of most groups on both (all) sides. If they are in power, if it be power from democracy, or other, such as force, finances, etc. they have the ‘right’ to rule, a mandate by the system that allows ruler-ship. The minority has to use other methods to challenge the system that allowed ruler-ship, such as equality, morality, etc. It’s the same thing that has always have gone on. > [@blinkie](#): > > My question is why so many fundamentalists are so non-christian in their “Christianity” They are bound by the (OT) Law, not yet realized the grace that Jesus offers them. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/26 "2010-04-14T15:09:39Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It seems to me you could make a very strong argument that fundamentalist Christian Right wingers (anti abortionists and their ilk) are anti democratic, in a most unpatriotic sort of way. > > What I mean is, they were all about majority over morality as long as they were in the majority. The enslavement of blacks is a good example. The morality of it wasn’t their issue, so long as they were in the majority it was all just good democracy in action. Ditto on segregation, again their fall back was democratic majority, morality be damned. > > But now that they aren’t in the majority, it’s all about the morality. > > Abortion is a perfect example, it seems to me. Times have changed and the abortion laws were changed by democratically elected majorities and/or their appointees. > > I find it odd that the fundamentalists are such red, white and blue patriots but can’t support their democracy when it doesn’t go their way. Isn’t the core of patriotism standing by the right of the majority to decide what’s best, regardless of whether it agrees with your personal view? > > I’m not saying they have to like it, or that they can’t rally people to make the changes they like to see. But how can they call themselves patriots when they can’t accept the outcome unless it goes their way? Abortion is a terrible example of the Christian Right opposing the democratic process. Abortion was de-criminalized as the result of a (series of) court decision(s) that thwarted the will of the majoirty as expressed in properlly (aside from the undecided constiutional issue) enacted legislation. If Roe were overturned today, you would see a handful of states adopt abortion statutes that would be much more restrictive than what is allowed under Roe. Those statutes would represent the will of the people. This has nothing to do with national polling data. If you’re so condfident in the “will of the pople” then you would agree that Roe should be overturned yesterday. It is pretty obvious that you don’t have a very good handle on this. The bottom line is that the will of the people is tempered by the constitution which (to oversimplify) can only be changed with a super-duper-majority ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/27 "2010-04-14T15:30:26Z")
Re-reading the OP, are you also saying that “fundamentalist Christian Right wingers” supported slavery and segregation? I’m sure some did, but conservative Christians were also major forces in the abolitionist and civil rights movements. I think you need to re-examine your primary assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/28 "2010-04-14T16:00:11Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Abortion is a terrible example of the Christian Right opposing the democratic process. … It is pretty obvious that you don’t have a very good handle on this. I find it pretty obvious that **elbows** doesn’t have a very good handle on any of the topics that he mentioned in the original post. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/29 "2010-04-14T19:50:57Z")
In the book the authoritarians, altemeyer found that right wing fundamentalist authoritarians (aka the christian right) do tend to hold hypocritical views in a variety of areas wrt civil rights. Basically cultural chauvinism which translates into things like fundamentalists being upset when someone says ‘happy holidays’ instead of merry christmas, but who also wants billboards supporting atheism taken down. Their views should be paramount, other views shouldn’t be included. It is a good book, and it is a free ebook. Another book, but one I’ve never gotten around to reading, is american fascists > **[Amazon.com: American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America:...](https://www.amazon.com/American-Fascists-Christian-Right-America/dp/0743284461)** > > Amazon.com: American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America: 9780743284462: Hedges, Chris: Books ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/30 "2010-04-14T22:17:56Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Re-reading the OP, are you also saying that “fundamentalist Christian Right wingers” supported slavery and segregation? I’m sure some did, but conservative Christians were also major forces in the abolitionist and civil rights movements. I think you need to re-examine your primary assumptions. In a way, it’s a conflict that went back to Adams and Jefferson. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334/31 "2010-04-15T11:43:16Z")
> [@Triskadecamus](#): > > It is only moot when you try to use it control what someone else is doing. Make of your heart a dwelling place for the Lord. Love Him, Love each soul you meet in the world as if that was Him. When the law is at odds with that intent, then seek your intent, without fear of the law. They can take from you nothing but your life, your liberty, and your property. These things are trivial. > > Tris When one uses their beliefs to make a law for all people it is not separation of Church and State as the constitution has set, knowing that if one religion (or none) would be the majority they would try to push their beliefs on another. As of now the Religious right want to push their beliefs on the rest of the country. Remember not all people believe as you do. To love some one in my opinion means to wish the best for that person and do what is best for them. If you believe in a Lord that is your way of doing it, but I know many Atheists who look out for the good of others and are kinder than a lot of believers in a Lord. If the intent is just to push one’s beliefs on another because it if their personal belief then there is a big difference. You choose to belive as you do and that is your right,but others also have the right to their beliefs and should be respected for it unless they use a belief to harm others. Belief is like a medication, what would heal one, could kill someone else! As an example: If my grandchildren took my high blood pressure medication they would die, but it is a help to me for my health. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-christian-right-and-democracy/535334.md?page=1)