# The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 23, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710 "2008-01-23T20:31:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/61 "2008-02-13T03:30:15Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Well, sir, I finished it. And surprise surprise, I didn’t hate it. In fact, I liked it enough to start the second set of books. Even though Donaldson’s writing is frustrating at times, I liked the way he tied up all the characters’ loose ends in a meaningful way, all to bring the plot to a conclusion. Triock, Pietten, Elena, Mhoram, Trell, Saltheart (a caamora via lava? Badass.) All ended up serving the plot. I can appreciate that. [/QUOTE] You know, I actually liked the second chronicles a bit more than the first, for some of those same reasons. Between the giants and the bloodguard, Donaldson created some damned interesting folks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Punkyova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@The\_Punkyova](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Punkyova)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/62 "2008-02-13T04:58:15Z")
I see that someone already mentioned “Fantasy Bedtime Hour,” so I’ll just say that the boys at[Starship Sofa](http://starshipsofa.com) did an interview with Donaldson that was quite interesting. Check around their podcasts for it. I will say that I didn’t like the Chronicles, and I read the first series and part of the second. It just didn’t do it for me. But between FBH and SS, I’ve come to like SRD as a personality quite a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/63 "2008-02-13T05:49:12Z")
As in the first Chronicles, I didn’t care for the second book again. Maybe it’s a character flaw in me, not liking middles or something - But I rush through both second books to get to the thirds. Also, I have The Atlas of the Land by Karen Wynn Fonstad. If you’ve ever looked at the nearly worthless map that used to be printed in the front of the books and wondered what the freakin’ scale is, Ms. Fonstad has it all worked out (and more). I’d be happy to look up stuff for anyone that has questions about such things. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/64 "2008-02-13T14:47:57Z")
So, **Ogre** , what’s your opinion of Covenant (and his attitude) now that you’ve finished? See him as more, or less, of a Moorcockian selfish bastard antihero? And what did you think of Lord Foul in the end? More evil or more banal than Tolkien’s Evil Overlord? Oh, and what did you think of Hile Troy afterwards? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/65 "2008-02-13T22:53:25Z")
[QUOTE=Lightray] So, **Ogre** , what’s your opinion of Covenant (and his attitude) now that you’ve finished? [/quote] Well, the interpretation of _The Chronicles_ that satisfies me the most is the one I guessed at earlier. I think I was pretty much completely spot-on (:p) about the theme of the book. The Land is Covenant’s soul. Lord Foul is his self-hatred. The Illearth Stone is his disease. The Staff of Law it his powerful, yet ultimately self-destructive unwillingness to break out of his strictly prescribed leper’s life. It seems to track pretty well. Therefore, the entire series was really about knowing himself, and forcing himself to come face to face with innate self-loathing, in order to get past his reliance on his old life (Kevin’s Lore) and allow himself to grow again. Donaldson knows that self-change is one of the most frustrating and daunting tasks any person can undertake, so in retrospect, Covenant’s maddening nature as represented in the novels is perfectly understandable. To make a long interpretation short, I choose to see the first books as pretty much a delusion from start to finish. Covenant’s mind made up the entire thing as the ultimate survival strategy. In this way, Covenant is mentally very, very powerful, and exceptionally lucky. I mean, he essentially had his inner landscape revealed to him in concrete terms. I must say, however, that I’m already thinking “uh oh” in _The Wounded Land_, because suddenly, it’s a much more conventional story. Lord Foul actually has objective reality in OUR world now, as revealed through the eyes of Linden Avery and the cultists, and Joan’s possession. This is a lot less interesting to me than the whole “man vs. himself” slant of the first trilogy. I can deal, though. I’ll just have to see what Donaldson’s angle is this time (but I suspect that it will be much more of a traditional sword n’ sorcery fantasy hero’s quest. Could be wrong. Probably am. But that’s what I’m anticipating.) > [@](#): > > See him as more, or less, of a Moorcockian selfish bastard antihero? I still see him as being very Moorcockian. Possibly even more so now. Even Moorcock’s antiheroes often tried to do the right thing, but were simply fatally flawed. What can I say? Covenant is the Land’s Eternal Champion, he reached Tanelorn at the end of the first trilogy, but I reckon he’s going to be called back into service from his well-earned rest. 🙂 > [@](#): > > And what did you think of Lord Foul in the end? More evil or more banal than Tolkien’s Evil Overlord? Actually, I think he’s both. Sauron and Lord Foul represent different things in the minds of their respective authors. Sauron represents the forces of industrialization and change. Tolkien saw this as pretty much an unalloyed evil. It destroys pastoral lifestyles, erases history, and generally stinks up the joint. The way he presents it, Sauron is a flaw, a product of a Fall. Of course, JRRT never would have written (or even acknowledged) that these changes may not end up being an altogether Bad Thing. On the other hand, Lord Foul is integral to the land. He’s part of it, because he’s part of our soul. In this way, he’s both more evil (insidious, personally destructive) AND more banal (hell, we ALL have our Lord Foul, and depending on how well we control him, sometimes we give him our own versions of the Illearth Stone. Covenant’s was leprosy. Someone else’s may be heroin, or alcohol, or Cheetos. In any case, it’s just a tool we give to our self-loathing that helps destroy us. Pretty banal.) > [@](#): > > Oh, and what did you think of Hile Troy afterwards? Interesting. He didn’t turn out to be as utterly ineffectual as I thought Donaldson was going to make him. So there may actually be some redemptive power in straightforward rationalism and calculation. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/66 "2008-02-14T01:31:39Z")
I wouldn’t agree with your interpretation that “it was all in his head,” but at this point don’t really know if I’d concluded otherwise after the first trilogy, or after the _second_ trilogy. Post back after you’re done with the second; it’ll be interesting to compare. I _do_ think that the inclusion of objective, real-world reality into the narrative weakens the storyline. I understand why Donaldson used Linden – after _The Power That Preserves_, Covenant has accepted the fantasy/reality paradox – but I actually felt that _Hile Troy_ was the problem (for all his nebulous existence in the real world, to Covenant’s knowledge). There was a fragment called “Gildenfire” which covered the quest to Seareach that Donaldson cut because it wasn’t from Covenant’s POV. I think that was a good thing; it would have undermined Covenant’s Unbelief. (even though the tale got told through the odd “message for you, sir” appearance of Bloodguard at random intervals) [QUOTE=Ogre] On the other hand, Lord Foul is integral to the land. He’s part of it, because he’s part of our soul. In this way, he’s both more evil (insidious, personally destructive) AND more banal (hell, we ALL have our Lord Foul, and depending on how well we control him, sometimes we give him our own versions of the Illearth Stone. Covenant’s was leprosy. Someone else’s may be heroin, or alcohol, or Cheetos. In any case, it’s just a tool we give to our self-loathing that helps destroy us. Pretty banal.) [/QUOTE] Ah, see, I think that’s because you’re regarding Foul as Covenant’s dark side, or death-wish, as it were. I find Foul much, much worse than Sauron. All Sauron is going to do is enslave, and torment, and probably kill his victims. pft. Foul makes people destroy _themselves_, while leaving them the one thing that is important to them but which is now so ruined that it just makes things all the more horrible. I think Covenant nailed what Foul does with his parable about the woman in the leprosarium with the beautiful smile – she didn’t do anything about her leprosy (= Foul, in this parable), and so had to have pieces of herself cut away again and again, until all that was left was a wreck of a human being and even that she still had her beautiful smile just made it _worse_ to hear about. … and Foul does that sort of stuff just because it amuses him (“Foul laughs at lepers.”) brrr. Sauron never did anything that evil. Morgoth, his boss, came close in what he did to Húrin – but both of 'em just wanted to conquer and rule. Foul wants to do that to _everyone_, and his attempts at conquest are just a cover for doing that. Far better to fight evin in Middle-Earth, than the Land, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/67 "2008-02-14T20:06:37Z")
I have more to say, but I’m in the middle of a long day of teaching. BRB. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/68 "2008-02-26T20:43:16Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] I have more to say, but I’m in the middle of a long day of teaching. BRB. 🙂 [/QUOTE] That’s a long day. You weren’t wearing a white gold ring on the 14th, were you? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/69 "2008-03-10T06:08:18Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] That’s a long day. You weren’t wearing a white gold ring on the 14th, were you? [/QUOTE] :smack: Crap. I forgot. And now I’ve forgotten what I was going to say. However, I have a new statement: I was convinced that _Runes of the Earth_ and _Fatal Revenant_ were the last hurrah. I thought it was a two-book farewell. A last adventure. So I got a little worried when I was about halfway through _Fatal Revenant_ and nothing seemed to be coming to a head. No trips to Mount Thunder. No big series-ending denouement. Dreading what I’d find, I flipped over to the last page, and sure enough - “The story continues in book 3…” Shit. SHIT. Wait a sec. “Continues”? Uh oh. A little research shows that the final “trilogy” is actually FOUR books. Goddamn it. The third is supposed to come out in 2010, and the last one not until 2013!! 2013!!! May _samadhi_ Sheol infest your eyebrow mites, Stephen R. Donaldson. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/70 "2008-03-10T08:42:15Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] :smack: Crap. I forgot. And now I’ve forgotten what I was going to say. However, I have a new statement: I was convinced that _Runes of the Earth_ and _Fatal Revenant_ were the last hurrah. I thought it was a two-book farewell. A last adventure. So I got a little worried when I was about halfway through _Fatal Revenant_ and nothing seemed to be coming to a head. No trips to Mount Thunder. No big series-ending denouement. Dreading what I’d find, I flipped over to the last page, and sure enough - “The story continues in book 3…” Shit. SHIT. Wait a sec. “Continues”? Uh oh. A little research shows that the final “trilogy” is actually FOUR books. Goddamn it. The third is supposed to come out in 2010, and the last one not until 2013!! 2013!!! May _samadhi_ Sheol infest your eyebrow mites, Stephen R. Donaldson. :mad: [/QUOTE] and with the run of form I’m having with my ongoibg series, it’s even odds he’ll cark it before he completes the final novel. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/71 "2008-03-10T16:05:01Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] and with the run of form I’m having with my ongoibg series, it’s even odds he’ll cark it before he completes the final novel. [/QUOTE] Just do me a favor and tell me you haven’t read _A Song of Ice and Fire_ yet, nor will you until it’s completely finished… ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/72 "2008-03-10T16:09:25Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Just do me a favor and tell me you haven’t read _A Song of Ice and Fire_ yet, nor will you until it’s completely finished… [/QUOTE] sorry, it’s on the “at danger” list. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/73 "2008-03-10T16:26:37Z")
[QUOTE=One And Only Wanderers] sorry, it’s on the “at danger” list. [/QUOTE] Darn your curse-bestowing eyes… ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/74 "2008-03-10T22:40:06Z")
I can finally say, now that I’ve finished as much of the story as presently exists, that I understand the draw of the story. It’s frustrating, but well told, Donaldson is not one to abide loose ends in his story. If a character appears, even for a page or two, you can be pretty darn sure that he or she is going to end up playing a larger part in the story down the road. That’s just good craftsmanship. The downside I am seeing, however, is that it’s becoming more difficult to relate to the story on a literary level. I mean, sure, it’s a mythic heroes’ quest, and it has plenty of sword and sorcery action. Dark lore, deep magical mysteries, world-shaking theurgies. All that. But it no longer seems to have the human theme I found attractive in the first (and to some extent the second) series. In the first trilogy, the Land, and most of its magic, was more or less directly derived from Thomas Covenant’s self-conflict. Donaldson, in the first book of the second series, pretty well confirms this in no uncertain terms. Hile Troy may or may not have existed in the real world at all. This is supported by Covenant’s failed attempt to track him down at the DoD (although I’m perfectly aware that it doesn’t _prove_ anything.) As soon as Lord Foul was able to cross over and have some sort of effect on our world, and Linden Avery was able to go to the Land, the whole thing became less effective to me. I still - although, believe me, Donaldson’s writing still gives me hives at times (“unhermeneuticalistic”? Really?) - like it. It’s just not quite as deep to me now. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/75 "2008-03-10T22:52:18Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] I inherited these books from my brother a while back, after he found the Lord and purged his collection of all those pagan fantasy books ( :rolleyes: ), and I’m just now giving them a whirl. I gotta say, I’ve been hearing for years about how these books are classics of the genre, but so far, I’m distinctly underwhelmed. I’m about halfway through the first book, so please tell me better things are to come. [/QUOTE] Can’t do that, because they won’t. I read the first three and quit. I’m surprised that I finished the first. I kept thinking that he’s got a good concept here, sooner or later he’s bound to hit his stride and make it work. He never did. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/76 "2008-03-15T02:22:02Z")
One quick thought: what is Donaldson’s deal with eyes and perception, and the removal thereof? Stave loses an eye. Mahrtiir loses BOTH his eyes. The Harrow has eyes black and flat as basalt, and the Humbled tried to remove them. The ur-viles and Waynhim don’t have eyes. Neither do the Sandgorgons. Hile Troy? No eyes. I can see how a lot of the story revolves around perception, with the Land and its native “percipience,” and then you have Kevin’s Dirt, and the inability of anyone except Avery to “see” during the whole Sunbane thing. But why all the eyeless characters, and loss of eyes all around? ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/77 "2008-03-15T03:14:54Z")
As well ask what the significance of the halfhand stuff is. Yes, it is there to link Covenant to Berek, and so that the three Bloodguard can be maimed likewise to show Foul’s contempt… but, why the halfhand? Some sort of meta-comment on Covenant’s lack of skill and inaptness? As with the eyes thing, Donaldson probably had some meta-reason for doing it, but too obscure for me to wriggle out. I suspect the no-eyes thing was to emphasize how out-of-touch with human contact those characters were, actually, given how important eye contact is to human interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/78 "2008-03-15T03:42:02Z")
I’m glad you returned to this thread, **Lightray**. I hope you don’t think I’m still bagging on the series. I can definitely state that I’m very much into the books. I went from “God I hate this. Every page is hard to get through.” to “OK. Lots of people think this is a fantasy classic. Keep reading.” to “Hmmm…that was kind of cool. Didn’t see that coming.” to “Ooooooh. I see what’s going on here.” to “Pietten?! Awesome. I completely forgot about that guy.” to “I can’t wait to read the rest of this!” So yeah, I’ve become a fanboi. I’m just trying to kick off a discussion among any interested parties. It’s been slow going. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/79 "2008-03-15T18:14:57Z")
So you can probably appreciate now why I can’t recall if I stopped viewing Foul and the Land as wholly within Covenant’s mind _before_ or _after_ the original trilogy. Donaldson dropping Linden in kind of messes with that premise of the original trilogy – I actually think that he retconned his own work to get the second trilogy in. I do have to say that I liked _Runes of the Earth_. Things were actually happening, and Linden in particular was _doing stuff_ for a change. Unlike the usual wherein Covenant and/or Linden are observers and commentators on what is going on, but maddeningly passive, each because of their own issues. _Fatal Revenant_, alas, was mostly back to passivity, with Linden unwilling to act even though she obviously knows that the situation is hinky. I’ll also add that each successive series has caused the _haruchai_ to annoy me more and more. I understand why Donaldson is using them – continuity for the Land with all the long time passage – but they way they’re written they’re damned annoying and unsympathetic. To borrow a comparison, they’re like the Guardians of Oa of the Green Lantern comics… stubbornly stupid. And I used to like the Bloodguard… ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2008, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710/80 "2008-03-15T18:24:40Z")
ah, curse! stupid hamsters took too long updating, and the edit timeout closed on me. to add: really, I’ve nothing against when people are down on the Covenant books – they’re pretty much written to annoy fantasy readers, after all. so… success, I guess. what is irritating is people dismissing or “bagging” on them out of hand. e.g., “Covenant is a rapist and therefore the books can have no redeeming value and anyone who likes them is likewise unredeemable.” which crops up quite often in online discussions of the books, from my experience. I’m actually surprised when someone who starts out not liking the books actually _finishes_ them, whether or not their opinion turns. guess I’m just not that patient and forgiving of stuff I don’t like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-chronicles-of-thomas-covenant/434710.md?page=5)