# The Civil War was not about states' rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085 "2019-09-12T02:14:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/141 "2019-09-16T18:04:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You really are ignorant about the meaning of Intent to kill, also referred to in many states as malice aforethought. Reread my statement. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What \*were \*they trying to do? Doesn’t matter. They didn’t shed blood. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s not as simple as your ideology either. But then the real world never is. > > Lincoln didn’t “chose to not negotiate the practicalities of the secession.” He opposed secession for both moral and practical reasons. And he was the representative of both a government and a general population which opposed secession. > > Lincoln wanted the seceding states to return back to the United States. He was willing to negotiate for that purpose. > > In his [inaugural speech](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/lincoln1.asp), he did not promise bloodshed. That is ridiculous. He spoke of his willingness to compromise and to acknowledge the rights of the southern states. > > I assume this is the portion of his speech you’re referring to: > > I know it’s inconvenient for you that history doesn’t support your beliefs. But that doesn’t mean you get to make up a different history. Lincoln chose to not negotiate payment for federal assets. Very few people wanted to actually make war on the rebels for secession whether they supported it or not. Unfortunately for many victims of the war, Lincoln went against his advisors and attempted to supply fort Sumter with the intent of drawing the first shot. This is made clear by his correspondence with Fox. Yes Lincoln plainly stated in his April 19th war proclamation that he was invading to collect taxes. “Whereas an insurrection against the Government of the United States has broken out in the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, and the laws of the United States for the collection of the revenue cannot be effectually executed therein conformably to that provision of the Constitution which requires duties to be uniform throughout the United States” > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So according to you it wasn’t the people shooting the cannons who were the trigger happy warmongers. It was the people who objected to having cannons shot at them. No. The people who fired the cannons were defending their homeland. The people who responded to what should have been an isolated incident with invasion and total war were warmongers. > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > You realize those forts were designed for harbor & coastal protection, yes? They were designed in the light of the War of 1812 where it was realized that there were not enough fortifications to protect the coasts and waterways of the USA. (The fact the the British made it all the way to Baltimore before finally coming across a fort that could stop them should speak volumes). Calling Sumter a ‘tax-collection fort’ is disingenuous at best. Denying that is was a tax-collection fort is disingenuous at best, because that was its purpose in the relevant timeframe. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No, it is a bad idea, because the “entire society” was made up of racist ignorant men who wanted to keep a evil way of life and treat people like property based on the color of the skins. > > The “small group of men” being those elected by the nation. A part of the nation elected the men, yes. Does that mean that they made the right decision? Interesting endorsement of the Trump Administration. > [@kirkrapine](#): > > The root cause of slavery was economic profitability. Yes it was profitable in the days of mercantilism but had been supplanted in more advanced capitalist economies. See Eric Williams. > [@kirkrapine](#): > > The trigger-happy warmongers of **that** day, **on both sides,** said the same. Once Sumter was fired on, there was no going back. Once Lincoln had decided to arm the fort, there was no going back. Yes we can go on and on stating causative factors. > [@DrDeth](#): > > They certainly tried , bombarding it for 34 hours. Point is they didn’t. There was no reason to eschew negotiation of purchase of the fort and others. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/142 "2019-09-16T18:13:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Reread my statement. > > Doesn’t matter. They didn’t shed blood. Sovereign citizen like arguments do not fly on the courts, and less so over here. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/143 "2019-09-16T18:16:03Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Sovereign citizen like arguments do not fly on the courts, and less so over here. Unintelligible. ---
**Author:** ![kirkrapine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@kirkrapine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kirkrapine)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/144 "2019-09-16T18:19:32Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Lincoln and others did want a strong federal government. And so did the Founding Fathers. The Constitutional Convention was necessary because the Articles of Confederation created too weak a government. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/145 "2019-09-16T18:22:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Doesn’t matter. They didn’t shed blood. So? If someone shoots me, and misses, am I not allowed to return fire until he hits? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/146 "2019-09-16T18:33:36Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Slavery was the cause of the civil war. But at the heart of that was the right of different states to allow slavery or not. And the American government was the one that said states could decide. The Confederate government was the one that said states didn’t have that right. So if the Civil War was fought over the issue of states rights, then the United States was defending states rights while the Confederates were fighting against states rights. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/147 "2019-09-16T18:36:06Z")
> [@kirkrapine](#): > > And so did the Founding Fathers. The Constitutional Convention was necessary because the Articles of Confederation created too weak a government. No the convention was a coup conducted in secret. Madison admitted the nationalists were defeated at the convention. A few states explicitly retained the right to secede in their ratifying document. The idea that “the Founding Fathers” spoke from one voice for a “strong government” is a fairy tale for schoolchildren. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/148 "2019-09-16T18:37:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So? If someone shoots me, and misses, am I not allowed to return fire until he hits? They did return fire. Once the conflict was over wise men could have noticed an opportunity for negotiation instead of escalation. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/149 "2019-09-16T18:41:37Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Unintelligible. Nope, your reply was. It was nonsensical to avoid the fact that **Intent to kill** is a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/150 "2019-09-16T18:46:50Z")
Will, this is probably the worst argument you’ve ever made on this board. The United States government owned Fort Sumter. It was their property. They were under no obligation to have to turn it over or to even negotiate to sell it if they didn’t want to. That’s basic property rights. Shooting at somebody is wrong. It’s wrong to shoot at somebody to try to make them give you their property. And it’s wrong to shoot at somebody even if you’re a bad shot and you don’t hit the person you’re trying to shoot. You are also wrong about the Confederate government wanting to buy Fort Sumter or any other property belonging to the United States government. They never made any offers to pay for anything. They just took everything. Fort Sumter was one of the last pieces of property they stole because it was one where the taking was more difficult. In no case did they offer to negotiate for the property they took or offer any payment after they took it. What we have here is a government that took somebody else’s property literally at gunpoint. And you of all people are defending it. But I guess you have succeeded in taking over another thread and making it all about you. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/151 "2019-09-16T18:51:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Denying that is was a tax-collection fort is disingenuous at best, because that was its purpose in the relevant timeframe. > > . Really. Just how many taxes were collected there? And [Fort Barancas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Barrancas#American_Civil_War), what taxes was it collecting? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/152 "2019-09-16T18:51:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > They did return fire. Once the conflict was over wise men could have noticed an opportunity for negotiation instead of escalation. Fort Sumter needed to conserve ammunition so it did not return fire **for two hours**. And historians do agree that the first fatalities of the war came indirectly, but as a result of the the hostilities. > **[Overcoming trial by fire at Fort Sumter](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/overcoming-trial-by-fire-at-fort-sumter/)** > > Marking 150 years since the the firing on Fort Sumter, it's important to observe how far we have come since that first national crisis > [@](#): > > With his food exhausted, his guns silent, and fires burning out of control, Anderson agreed to a truce at 2:00 p.m. on the 13th. The next day, Fort Sumter was officially surrendered, and Anderson’s men marched out to a 100-gun salute – Anderson’s only demand. The salute was cut short, however, when a pile of cartridges accidentally exploded, killing Private Daniel Hough and mortally wounding Private Edward Gallway – the first fatalities of the war. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/153 "2019-09-16T19:24:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Will, this is probably the worst argument you’ve ever made on this board. > > The United States government owned Fort Sumter. It was their property. They were under no obligation to have to turn it over or to even negotiate to sell it if they didn’t want to. That’s basic property rights. > > Shooting at somebody is wrong. It’s wrong to shoot at somebody to try to make them give you their property. And it’s wrong to shoot at somebody even if you’re a bad shot and you don’t hit the person you’re trying to shoot. > > You are also wrong about the Confederate government wanting to buy Fort Sumter or any other property belonging to the United States government. They never made any offers to pay for anything. They just took everything. Fort Sumter was one of the last pieces of property they stole because it was one where the taking was more difficult. In no case did they offer to negotiate for the property they took or offer any payment after they took it. > > What we have here is a government that took somebody else’s property literally at gunpoint. And you of all people are defending it. > > But I guess you have succeeded in taking over another thread and making it all about you. The Confederates attempted to negotiate payment for federal “property”. The fact that you are ignorant of this is no excuse as I’ve repeatedly pointed out to you in the past. You insist on pulling from grade school narratives. The “property” in question happened to be a hostile fort. Even the most ardent statist would admit that if your neighbor attempts to fortify and collect taxes from you, there is a legitimate cause for self-defense. I also note your refusal to admit that the North declared war to collect taxes, even when confronted with a primary source with clear and express language. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/154 "2019-09-16T19:30:21Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Fort Sumter needed to conserve ammunition so it did not return fire **for two hours**. > > And historians do agree that the first fatalities of the war came indirectly, but as a result of the the hostilities. > > [Overcoming trial by fire at Fort Sumter - CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/overcoming-trial-by-fire-at-fort-sumter/) So they did return fire and the rebels hurt nobody. Thanks for that one, bud. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/155 "2019-09-16T19:48:56Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So they did return fire and the rebels hurt nobody. Thanks for that one, bud. That is still a nonsensical reply, read it again, Attempted Murder is not “nothing”. And history does point at the 2 Union soldiers dying as a result of what the Confederacy did. Of course the ones at Fort Sumpter also did not hurt anybody from the confederacy either, so your by own “logic” they are blameless of what you think. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/156 "2019-09-16T19:52:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is still a nonsensical reply, read it again, Attempted Murder is not “nothing”. And history does point at the 2 Union soldiers dying as a result of what the Confederacy did. > > Of course the ones at Fort Sumpter also did not hurt anybody from the confederacy either, so your by own “logic” they are blameless of what you think. 2 union soldiers died because Anderson had them do some ridiculous jingo move. The Union began calling up troops after Ft Sumter right after Lincoln congratulated Fox for drawing the first shot. That was the start of the invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/157 "2019-09-16T20:03:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > 2 union soldiers died because Anderson had them do some ridiculous jingo move. > > The Union began calling up troops after Ft Sumter right after Lincoln congratulated Fox for drawing the first shot. That was the start of the invasion. It’s fascinating how quickly you abandon literally every one of your oft-stated principles when it comes to defending the South. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/158 "2019-09-16T20:04:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > 2 union soldiers died because Anderson had them do some ridiculous jingo move. > > The Union began calling up troops after Ft Sumter right after Lincoln congratulated Fox for drawing the first shot. That was the start of the invasion. I love how your premises seem to be “How dare the Fort Sumter fire back”, followed by “How dare the Union Fight back!!” ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/159 "2019-09-16T20:06:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s fascinating how quickly you abandon literally every one of your oft-stated principles when it comes to defending the South. No I am against all wars. Same here. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085/160 "2019-09-16T20:07:35Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > I love how your premises seem to be “How dare the Fort Sumter fire back”, followed by “How dare the Union Fight back!!” No the event at Ft Sumter could have been an isolated incident. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/840085.md?page=9)