# The classic 'Who would you save, your drowning dog or a stranger?' question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541 "2003-08-12T00:52:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Skeptico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@Skeptico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skeptico)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/101 "2003-08-13T16:07:41Z")
Who would you save, a drowing stranger or… …a strange dog (not your own). …an options contract worth $100 million dollars and quickly sinking. …the original Monalisa painting. …a vial containing the cure for a deadly disease YOU have, and up to now thought of as incurable (ex: AIDS). …a vial containing the cure for a deadly incurable disease you DON’T have, but lots of other people do. Now go back to the top, but replace the drowining stranger with your own dog. ---
**Author:** ![Skeptico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@Skeptico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skeptico)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/102 "2003-08-13T16:11:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Well I would rescue the drowning stranger before the turtle. Then the order would be the rabbit then chickens(youngest to oldest). Well actually I guess I’d leave the turtle for last. Darn these moral dilemmas are tough. Don’t stress over them turtles, buddy. They swim. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/103 "2003-08-13T16:42:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*I’d try to save any drowning animal. > > Julie \*\* Fascinating. Now, why would you save a human being when “human” potential has no intrinsic value"? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/104 "2003-08-13T16:55:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragon Phoenix \* > \*\*1. Yes, very clever to nitpick someone for whom English is not the mother tongue. Full marks to you. > > 1. Cite? On what grounds can you make a definitive statement like that. \*\* 1. Relax. 2. Your dog might follow you to the ends of the earth with its tongue hanging out and tail wagging, and you may choose to call this “love”, but to my mind your dog loves you like it loves its dinner. Anyone truly interested in the canine capacity for love and higher emotions might want to start another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Dragon\_Phoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@Dragon\_Phoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragon_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/105 "2003-08-13T17:01:46Z")
1. I am relaxed. I just think that was a rather unnecessary and unproductive way of pointing out a deficiency in someone else’s English. 2. Ah, so the factual statement of the previous page has now watered down to an IM(H)O. 3. If you have a dog and think the dog does not love you, I pity you and your dog. If you don’t have a dog, I fail to see why you are in a position to make a statement at all about whether a dog loves its boss or not. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/106 "2003-08-13T17:31:44Z")
Save the human. Then try to save my Dog, even if it puts my life at risk. Sorry but a death of a Human causes more grief than the death of any dog. I think even to myself as the dog owner, the idea that I had let a human die would not be something I would want to live with. I would though risk my life for my dog, as I believe my dog would do the same for me, and as many have said, there is a moral bond between you and your dog. Bippy, thinking from the time long past when he was young and the family had a dog for a pet. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/107 "2003-08-13T17:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > \*\*Fascinating. Now, why would you save a human being when “human” potential has no intrinsic value"? \*\* Since I said I would save _any_ animal, how does my decision rest on any argument about “human” potential? Julie ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/108 "2003-08-13T17:56:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragon Phoenix \* > **Ah, so the factual statement of the previous page has now watered down to an IM(H)O** No, no it hasn’t been watered down. What was meant was what you call “love” isn’t what I call love – not the same as IMHO, at all. You might want to consider why you think it reasonable to demand a cite from me – surely it is you who asserts that a dog is capable of love? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragon Phoenix \* > \*\*If you have a dog and think the dog does not love you, I pity you and your dog. If you don’t have a dog, I fail to see why you are in a position to make a statement at all about whether a dog loves its boss or not. \*\* Now, this is just silly, isn’t it? I neither require nor desire your pity, and my dog-owning status is wholly irrelevant – I do not own an apiary but I know that bees cannot speak Greek, not even the Greek ones. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/109 "2003-08-13T18:14:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*Since I said I would save _any_ animal, how does my decision rest on any argument about “human” potential? > > Julie \*\* I had previously asked > [@](#): > > If there’s nothing intrinsically valuable in human potential then presumably you’d answer “No,” to the hypothetical, “If a stranger was drowning and you could save them, would you?” This question was prompted by your assertion that > [@](#): > > There isn’t anything intrinsically valuable in [human] “potential.” You answered > [@](#): > > I’d try to save any drowning animal. And, given the context, I took that to mean any human “animal” too. So, I then asked > [@](#): > > why would you save a human being when “human” potential has no intrinsic value? hoping that you might supply me with reasons that you would consider saving a human life for. Nowhere did I suggest, or imply, that your decision rested in any way upon human potential, indeed, the whole point was that you claim to see no value in human potential. So, **jsgoddess** , what reasons would you have to save another human being? ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/110 "2003-08-13T18:20:43Z")
**Dragon Phoenix** ’s question about saving 10,000 unknown people or your most loved one. Has moved me to start a new thread. [Value of Human / Dog life](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=204382) ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/111 "2003-08-13T18:21:53Z")
is it accurate to say that saving the dog is your personal responsibility and the stranger is your social responsibility? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/112 "2003-08-13T18:23:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > \*\*So, **jsgoddess** , what reasons would you have to save another human being? \*\* A desire to lessen the suffering and needless death of any animal. Just as I would try to save a giraffe, or a gerbil, or any other animal. I don’t like to watch things die. I really don’t like to watch things suffer. It has nothing to do with whether a gerbil has hopes and dreams and potential for anything other than “potential to live longer.” You seem to be suggesting that my reasons for saving a human need be any different than my reasons for saving _any_ animal in distress. They aren’t. Julie ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/113 "2003-08-13T18:23:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragon Phoenix \* > \*\*Let me bounce back the button question to you. > > Left we have a big tank with 10000 people in it. Right we have the most important person in your life (So, parent, kid, whomever). Choose a button please. > > Let me guess the answer. So 10000 strangers are less important than that single person?\*\* You guessed wrong. I could not bring myself to murder 10000 people. I’m sure that the single important person in the other tank would be telling me to save the 10000 people, as well. It would be the hardest thing I have ever done, but there’s no doubt that I’d save the 10000 people. > [@](#): > > \*\*Then why is it so strange that many of us value our dog more than a single stranger? \*\* Put yourself in the stranger’s place for a moment. You’re caught in the undertow and know that you’ll only last a few more minutes. You also see some random dog a distance away from you, also seemingly in mortal peril. Suddenly a stranger leaps into the water and starts swimming. “I’m saved!”, you think. “Now I’m not going to die! Now my kids won’t have to be made wards of the state! Now I . . . I . . . What the f_ck are you doing! I’m over here! This way! What?! Are you actually going to save that dog and let me die?! You are, aren’t you?! You f_cking bastard!! I hope you burn in Hell for this you f_cking son of a b_tch!!!” As you inhale a mouth full of seawater and get pulled under for the last time, you see the one person who could have saved you stumbling back onto the beach carrying a very wet chihuahua, and you think to yourself, “I hope that f\*cking dog gets hit by a car, a\*\*hole.” As the pain in your lungs pushes out rational thought, you have one breif flash of greif for your kids, who now have no family, and then everything goes black. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/114 "2003-08-13T18:33:21Z")
**Dragon Phoenix** if you have … a pet Spider, do you consider the Spider loves you? OK, how about a pet Bullfinch? or a pet cat? or a young child? or a spouce? or a Mother? The feeling even knowing of love from another to yourself is something internal to yourself. It ias as possible to be loved at not know it, as it is to believe yourself loved whilst the other does not love you. It is also so difficult to classify love that some will choose to clasify it as only possible between Humans. It is simply a difference of oppinion over what love is. ---
**Author:** ![Hinten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecd19e/32.png) [@Hinten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hinten)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/115 "2003-08-13T18:36:37Z")
The human life has more intrinsic value than any animal life. Human rights and values should always come over any animal’s. I would save my dog. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/116 "2003-08-13T18:43:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skeptico \* > \*\*Who would you save, a drowing stranger or… > > …a strange dog (not your own).\*\* Stranger. > [@](#): > > **…an options contract worth $100 million dollars and quickly sinking.** Stranger. > [@](#): > > **…the original Monalisa painting.** Stranger. > [@](#): > > **…a vial containing the cure for a deadly disease YOU have, and up to now thought of as incurable (ex: AIDS).** Vial. > [@](#): > > **…a vial containing the cure for a deadly incurable disease you DON’T have, but lots of other people do.** Vial. > [@](#): > > \*\*Now go back to the top, but replace the drowining stranger with your own dog. \*\* My dog. My dog. My dog. Vial. Vial. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/117 "2003-08-13T18:57:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*You’re caught in the undertow and know that you’ll only last a few more minutes. You also see some random dog a distance away from you, also seemingly in mortal peril. Suddenly a stranger leaps into the water and starts swimming. > > “I’m saved!”, you think. “Now I’m not going to die! Now my kids won’t have to be made wards of the state! Now I . . . I . . . What the f_ck are you doing! I’m over here! This way! What?! Are you actually going to save that dog and let me die?! You are, aren’t you?! You f_cking bastard!! I hope you burn in Hell for this you f_cking son of a b_tch!!!” > > As you inhale a mouth full of seawater and get pulled under for the last time, you see the one person who could have saved you stumbling back onto the beach carrying a very wet chihuahua, and you think to yourself, “I hope that f\*cking dog gets hit by a car, a\*\*hole.” As the pain in your lungs pushes out rational thought, you have one breif flash of greif for your kids, who now have no family, and then everything goes black. \*\* If only drowning were so pleasant. ---
**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/118 "2003-08-13T19:14:14Z")
Wow, leave the thread for a day and see what happens? To respond a little (and to jump bank into the frey) if we’re going to question the love of an animal how the hell do you quantify love? Just because I say “I love you” doesn’t make it so. I understand my cat never told me he loved me, nor did he write me poems or jump and push me from a speeding car. I just loved him and mentally accepted that he loved me back. 10,000 humans or 10 million really doesn’t matter to me. My order of saving people will always begin with the people I love _first_ (including animals), then my friends, then strangers. I won’t save a cat over a person, but I would have saved _my_ cat over a person. And if I was in the reverse posistion I could understand it. Just like I would understand if someone picked a child over me. I’d rather have a child live over myself and if an owner is going to pick their beloved animal over me, fine. I’ve been there and I completely understand. And about people having breaking points? I don’t buy that. I would commit suicide before breaking my oath of love or commitment as probably many would. I guess you could call that a breaking point though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/119 "2003-08-13T19:16:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*A desire to lessen the suffering and needless death of any animal. > > Just as I would try to save a giraffe, or a gerbil, or any other animal. I don’t like to watch things die. I really don’t like to watch things suffer. > > It has nothing to do with whether a gerbil has hopes and dreams and potential for anything other than “potential to live longer.” > > You seem to be suggesting that my reasons for saving a human need be any different than my reasons for saving _any_ animal in distress. They aren’t. > > Julie \*\* (Dealing with your last paragraph first – I can’t see how I “seem to be suggesting” any such thing, rest assured, I am not.) “A desire to lessen the suffering” – this is the whole thing, **jsgoddess** , the human “potential” for suffering is beyond compare. The stranger can recognise the horror of their predicament and see beyond their immediate discomfort to contemplate their own mortality. They can entertain regrets of the children they will never see, of the people they will never be, of their grieving relatives and friends saddened at their loss. That’s why I’d save the stranger. What about you? Not for your dog, but for your cat? Your cockateel? Your gerbil? Your goldfish? Your bee? Would you be horrified if someone answered “Not for my gerbil, no, not Graham, with his bushy ears and skinny tail – he’d follow me to the ends of the world that gerbil would (sob), he’s more of a man than you’ll ever be _The Great Unwashed_”? Where’s the OP, who I have come to hate? ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541/120 "2003-08-13T19:27:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badmana \* > **And about people having breaking points? I don’t buy that. I would commit suicide before breaking my oath of love or commitment as probably many would.** In the scenerio I gave above, comitting suicide would have the same effect as breaking your oath. Namely, your pet would die because of your actions. As for everyone having a breaking point, I’m sure that you do, too. Are you telling me that if you had two buttons in front of you, one of which will kill your pet, and the other of which will kill every person in the world whom you don’t know, you would kill billions of people so that your pet might live? Remember that comitting suicide is not an option, since, if neither button is pressed after a set time limit, they’ll _both_ get pressed automatically. Anyone who commits suicide in such a situation is a coward who is just trying to save themselves from the pain of making a dificult decision at the expense of the _lives_ of others. So, what is your breaking point? How many human lives have to be at risk before you are willing to kill your pet? 100? 1,000? 1,000,000? 1,000,000,000? No copping out with the “I’ll commit suicide” line. My hypothetical situation has you in naked in a padded cell. You have no method available to commit suicide. How many people will you be unwilling to kill in place of your pet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-classic-who-would-you-save-your-drowning-dog-or-a-stranger-question/194541.md?page=7)