Frankly, I’d prefer that racists drop the N-bomb loudly and proudly. It makes a good marker for a person to avoid (or at least give absolutely zero credence to): kind of like a person wearing ski-mask in the summer- that screams “Don’t follow me into the bank.”
Any term can be used pejoratively, and when a generally held attitude tends to make the pejorative sense the most common usage, or one of the commonest usages, of a word, it becomes a taboo term. My father was born in 1908 and had a few black friends – our area was less than 0.1% black, so those few constituted a large part of the black community. But he, in the 1950s, did not feel any compunction in using the term “nigger” as a descriptive. “Fred, I’d say Wash, the nigger who runs Old Man Riley’s garage, is your best bet for getting that radiator fixed right, and cheap to boot. Or you could try the Jones Brothers, but carry extra water; they’re five miles out of town.”
To take a quite modern example, I think I’ve mentioned, when I was researching homosexuality online, coming across a newsgroup, now defunct, of men attracted to prepubescent boys. They were, however, acutely aware of the consequences of acting on that attraction – not only the legal ones to themselves, but the psychological ones to the boys they desired. And obviously, for them to “come out” as what they were would have approximately the survival value of diving onto an operating buzzsaw for fun and profit. So they used the newsgroup as a place where they could be open about their sexuality, a sort of online support group in dealing with their ostracized status and in supporting each other in their resolve not to harm the kids they said they loved. Were they pedophiles? Absolutely. Were they therefore immoral? My opinion is that they were doing the best thing possible morally for themselves and each other in the mutual support they got from that newsgroup.
Too, one must take into account the need of the historical novelist to convey accurately the spirit of the times of which he writes, and the need of any novelist to characterize accurately. A stereotypical redneck who says “African-American” is as out of verisimilitude as a 14th century women’s libber. In the novel I’ve outlined and hope to get writing on during 2001, a major character is a gay teenage boy who is dominated by an older brother, and the latter, if convincing, will be calling him “fag” and worse. Anything else would be inappropriate to the attitude-ridden kid I’ve developed for the older brother character. This does not therefore mean that I approve of the use of the term other than in World War I-vintage songs or references to Fred Phelps’ stupidity.
At the same time, one hopes that literary license also carries with it the moral obligation to paint the users of abusive language in such terms that people recoil from them and therefore clean up their own acts. This is not suggesting that “every story has to have a moral” – just that the idea of an abusive antihero viewpoint character needs to be a relatively rare plot focus, because it can easily be overdone on the one hand, and because the author owes it to society to illustrate what he sees as evils in the sort of light that leads to their correction, not as morally neutral or approving cold depiction. (And there we get into a bit of literary critical theory I don’t want to go too deeply into; suffice it to say that I’m making a generalized point here, not proposing a standard for all fiction.)
Eft, you make an interesting and valid point here. Maybe I’ve been myopic about this matter.
When someone calls me a bitch, my response is usually something along the lines of ‘Damn skippy and don’t forget it!’ I’ve ‘reclaimed’ this word and often described myself as quite a bitch.
I’m going to ponder it a bit…
I’m an Asian American. Since I was young, I remember being subject to racial slurs. I also saw this many times in Vietnam war movies: “Kill all the gooks,” “Can’t trust those slant-eyed rice dicks,” and what not.
Nowadays, I’m no longer affected by such words. I feel I’ve grown above it.
Just the other day, I watched a black comedian on TV. He spat out just about every racial slur and stereotype. This included “gook” (or “greedy gook,” for some of you worried about connotation) and the N word, of which I’m no longer able to type. I honestly got a good laugh from his jokes. And I feel that I bonded with him in some way.
Nevertheless, I sort of felt liberated to use the N word, and subsequently I tried its use for all you lucky folks on this board. But it seems you all are not ready for it yet.
The fact that a certain word is acceptible to use within a certain racial group, and unacceptible for anyone outside that group, implies that racism still exists. Either everyone should freely use the word, or no one should use it.
Since it is impossble that no one should use a certain word (you can’t get rid of a word, it will crop up somewhere), the only alternative is for everyone to freely use it.
Therefore I have no qualms for people using the word “gook.” And I should have no qualms for using the N word, although I will be banned for using it again here.
I’m sorry if I have blasphemed against your sacred institution of political correctness. I was merely attempting to explore the possibility that racism (in America) is becoming more or less benign.
P.S. Juanita. Am I you favorite poster forever? Or is this just a temporary deal?
I don’t see anything significant about the word nigger other than the fact that it is offensive to people. Not to belittle this, but in this regard it does not stand out from many other words that people may find offensive. So I would say that someone who uses the word and claims to have not been offensive is being disingenuous. But in a situation where someone deems it appropriate to insult someone (should it exist) it would not necessarily stand out from among other insults which might be equally offensive. Or at any rate, someone who uses the word is guilty of insulting people, not of some uniquely horrific crime.
One distinction to be made is that in when in a public forum (such as the SD), using the term to denigrate one black person (or group) will insult all the black people reading it. This is not the case when calling someone a jerk, or the like. But the same would apply to insulting someone by calling them fat, or some other characteristic that is shared by many people.
Oh please, child. The only thing lamer than being “politically correct” is trying to insult someone by calling them “politically correct.”
Still doesn’t excuse you from basic politeness.
“The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn,” published in the 1880s, depicted life in 1840 Missouri, when the use of the word “nigger” was common parlance. In 2001, this is, blessedly, no longer so. Certainly, nobody used the word in the novel in a complimentary sense.
[quote]
“That said, that word has no place in decent people’s discourse.”
As a descriptor, in general conversation, yes, I agree completely.
[/quote
So why are we having this discussion?
So how do you use the word in conversation?
Those are not analogous in connotation. Words that have similar connotations would be spic, kike, cunt, or fag. Do you use those words, too?
My point is that no non-black person can use that word innocently. If you really believe that word does not carry emotional freight, then I wonder if you have ever had an honest conversation with a black co-worker or friend about
how hearing that word makes them feel? You say that “Christian” conveys the same legacy of hate as does “nigger.” OK,
Colin Powell is a fine Christian.
Colin Powell is a fine nigger.
Do you see no difference in those sentences?
Colin Powell…He’s a Christian!!! Oh man o man…
Nigger. Nigger. Nigger. Fuck. Shit. Cock. Cunt. Kike. Gook. Redneck. Faggot.
Oooo. Big fucking deal. Perhaps, being the average white guy and never having a good “racial slur” used against me I guess I can’t relate, but I honestly find no “slur”, nor curse, etc, to be a bad bad thing.
What bothers me is, I guess, the context of the individual…not even of the sentence. Is the individual a hateful person; ie-would I dislike him/her even if they hadn’t uttered a particular word? Sure. So what exactly do we hate a word for?
Ah, yes, no good reason at all. Words are carriers of sentiment, fact, and speculation. People imply sentiment, state facts, and vocally speculate. Hate the people, not the words. You’re missing the forest for the trees if you don’t.
Nope, you can’t relate. Not being average or a guy and possessing some of the traits that, shall we say, “jerks” yell before kicking the crap out of you, I can relate.
Because the person is deliberately showing lack of respect (and possibly making a threat) by choosing a word intended as an insult. If someone yells from their car, “Hey, grape!” I’m going to be confused. If someone yells, “Hey, dyke!” or “Hey, bitch!” and they’re not a friend of mine, then I know I have problems and should at least be prepared to defend myself.
Not that simple. People choose the words they use–those words don’t exist in a vacuum. Report back when you have a visceral understanding of how insults relate to violence. I suggest living in an environment where you’re not average for a while; it does amazing things for one’s outlook.
I’m not suggesting that context has nothing to do with a word’s appropriateness. I brought up the concept of word reclamation earlier in this thread, and I’ve reclaimed some words myself. But word reclamation happens within a group, not outside it.
[sub]First things first…[/sub]
BeerUser, if you think you offended me solely because of your use of the word nigger, you’re very wrong. I was offended because you used your very limited experiences to decry an entire race of Americans.
These are the words that I found most offensive.
I will take back one thing I said in my Pit rant, though. I asked what kind of bleach you use to keep you Klan outfit white. Now that you’ve claimed to be Asian American, I guess my question has no basis. That is, unless the Klan has relaxed their membership policies.
As to your second question, I think you’ll always be my favorite poster. If your status changes, I’ll be sure to let you know.
Reporting as ordered
Does working in such an environment count? How about regularly visiting?
For the former, I spent almost an entire summer in Cleveland’s housing projects. Needless to say, I was well-hated without “slurs.” But the words used against me still reflected on the individals themselves…that is, it doesn’t bother me to hear others use those words in particular. Granted, I was only threatened, as well, no actual harm came to me (but I wasn’t gonna stay past 3:30 to find out if it would, I assure you).
As for the latter, some friends lived in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood. Spics, you know. 
Never had a problem at all, never threatened or anything.
Now, that doesn’t mean that “spics” are better than “niggers” either. hahah. It just means that wrods are offensive for two reasons. One, you find it offensive to hear uttered no matter the implication. Two, the person who utters it wants it to be offensive. The former case I disagree with on principle. The latter case seems semantic, but I maintain it.
The point you bring up is interesting, but say, for example, that someone did say, “Hey bitch” to you. As you stated, this puts you on the defensive. That’s fine. But needless to say, is there nothing else they could say that would, as well, put you on the defensive? Is it only the “slur” or “curse” itself which is the trigger? That is, are slurs and swear-words irreplacible?
I don’t think so. Which is why I don’t find them offensive. It would be just as offensive to say “Niggers are theives” as “All blacks steal.” To me, anyway, bein’ a whitey. 
But as an aside, are there any white slurs? I mean, we make fun of, say, italians or irish, brits or germans, etc…but we don’t make fun of “Zimbabeweeans” or “Citizens of Chad” (who the hell would they be?!). I mean, I’m on the wrong side to find out this information…perhaps some of the “other” side can fill me in.
What are white people called? Or are we not called anything? The latter seems more likely, and somewhat disappointing.
How did you get insulted if they didn’t use slurs?
Of course, there are insulting names for white people; cracker, ofay, redneck, honky, but none of those conjure up visceral nightmare images for the average white person.
goboy, I was told that I was “stealing jobs from them,” that I “did not belong here” and so on. Apart from “mother fucker” I really didn’t hear any insults per se, but was insulted, yeah?
ofay? hahaha. Never heard that one. is that, like, Oh-FA? Ha. Yeah, cracker. I guess they(white slurs) don’t really exist because I don’t get pissed by them. I mean, what does “cracker” really imply to me anyway?
Well, redneck does bother me, but mainly because I use the term as well and would find it to be a gross misrepresentation of who I am. That is, I am not stereotypically a redneck. But, I think I would just laugh if someone called me one…like, “Me? How did you guess I had a mullet not two hours ago?” hahaha
Maybe I’m just a dick so I don’t think about negative emotional implications. hmmm
Goboy, I think we’re talking cross-purposes.
Originally, you said that no one could use certain words in a civilized society.
Implicit in that was that one could not use “nigger” to describe someone else. That is where we agree. But while you implied that, I failed to infer it, and instead thought you were suggesting that the word was inherently evil.
You ask:
You then said:
Like that. You just used a whole bunch of nasty words in conversation. That’s my only point, really–that words are just words, and it’s the intent and context that are of supreme importance. And on that, I think, we agree, yes?
I’d like to think that we have been doing just that.
Andros, on this point we are in complete agreement. In using metalanguage–talking about talking itself–yes, the words have no connotation because we are talking about them in neutral terms. We are discussing these words as mere linguistic units.
On that point we do agree, but only up to a point. There is a slippery slope. Some people have argued that a non-black person can use the word with harmless intent, as in “what’s up, my nigger?”, and I maintain that’s impossible, unless you have an extraordinarily tolerant set of friends who are black. Because of the loaded emotional freight, it’s a word best left alone.
I don’t know, goboy, because of its “charged” status I like to use it that much more. Kind of reverse psychology or something…I want words like that watered down…not using them because they are “charged” just perpetuates their “charged” nature by keeping them off-limits.
But, I don’t expect everyone to agree nor even understand. S’alright. I’ll take my punches, I guess. Hopefully only figuratively speaking.
You and Lenny Bruce.
As an idealist, I like the idea. But from a practical standpoint, I don’t recommend that you (as a self-described average white guy) walk up to someone you don’t know and address that person as “bitch”, “fag”, or “nigger”. That’s not going to get the word charged down, it’s going to get your ass kicked. I suggest that you become a screenwriter or author and write your goal into the story. Much safer way to accomplish the same end.
One of my friends is black, and we discussed the use of the N-word once after I heard his brother use it to greet him. I was curious as to what he thought about it, so I asked him.
My friend’s opinion was that it isn’t the word, but the context it’s used in. He said, if a white person called him it, he would assume it was intended to be derogatory. But when another black person uses the same word, it doesn’t have the same (bigoted and hateful) meaning to it. It doesn’t have the same effect when it comes from someone in the same situation as yourself.
I can see his point of view on this. Being gay, I often refer to myself as queer. And I don’t object to our local community centre hosting a monthly event called “The Queer Zone”. But if a straight person called me a queer, I would find it extremely offensive.
This is merely the opinion of my friend and I. Other people may not like the use of these words, no matter what the context is. Some people find these words acceptable from some mouths and not others, whilst others don’t find them acceptable at all, no matter who says them.