# The 'Commander Riker' Syndrome... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 13, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326 "2010-05-13T17:54:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/41 "2010-05-14T11:58:23Z")
Am I the only one missing the obvious? **Picard** Seven+ years as Captain of the Flagship of the Federation. Apparently a world class negotiator and diplomat, dealing with culture new and familiar. Trusted by the Klingon High Council. Savior of the Federation’s ass on numerous occasions. Yet seven+ years as Captain. He should have be an Admiral and part of the general staff and making policy long since. To leave him in his role as Captain is to waste talent. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/42 "2010-05-14T13:00:10Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > When did other people get promoted on Voyager? (I could well have missed it, but I don’t remember it happening, aside from Paris getting busted down and then re-instated.) Technically, I think they promoted the _Doctor_ once—actually, to be utterly technical, I think it was more of an occasional brevet-command, though he was _decorated_ at least once—that’s gotta sting. “Well yes, he _is_ basically a computer program, and there are real philisophical doubts over his sentience—oh, and don’t get me _started_ on the legal angle. He’s basically a serf at _best_. And there’s case law to support it—but I think he’s just got that special ‘something’ that makes a fine naval commander!” :smack: And I think it was in [“Nightingale”](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nightingale_%28episode%29) where Harry actually makes a case to Janeway that he notes that he realizes that there are problems with the chain of command that mean he can’t get promoted, but that back home, he might have gotten as far as Lt. Cmdr. by that point in his career (right before she relents and gives him temporary command of a ship, which he nearly botches anyway, but that’s beside the point). To get further off the point, though, I wonder how much _lifespan_ would have to factor in in Starfleet promotions as well. I mean, if the average humanoid lifespan is in excess of 100 years, people might not be retiring until they’re in their 80s or older, holding junior rank for what to us seems an unusually long time might not be an unusual waste of time for them. (See also: Fanwank; Tortured Rationalizations. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/43 "2010-05-14T13:18:25Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > I am one pissed of Trekkie about this “reboot”. It just throws 4 series’s continuity out the window. I, for one, do not consider “Star Trek” (2009) to be canon. > > Maybe if someone had written the screenplay that had actually _watched_ the TV show… :dubious: Well it is acknowledged that the reboot effectively replaces the original series in this new universe. The original continutiystands in the original universe as far as I am aware. As regards promotion schedule - what about long lived species like Vulcans sevring with humans in Starfleet. Do they serve twice as long at a given rank or do they have to make up higher and higher ranks to keep promoting 'em to? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/44 "2010-05-14T13:54:40Z")
I’ll go in another direction: West Wing. It’s true that there’s no “rank” in the same way that Starfleet would have it and that people did get promoted (like CJ moving inexplicably from Press Secretary to Chief of Staff), but in six years you’d almost expect the entire senior staff of the President to have rotated out as they got new jobs at law firms/lobbying firms/think tanks/etc. But time and time again these people are presented with jobs and say “thank you for your offer of a truckload of cash. But I believe I must pass. For the good, nay…for the great of the country!” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/45 "2010-05-14T14:36:31Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I was going to say “everyone in Beetle Bailey”, but then I realized that Camp Swampy is the Army’s dumping ground where careers go to die, so no surprises there. Beetle was promoted once, then immediately did someting to get demoted. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/46 "2010-05-14T14:45:26Z")
> [@chrisk](#): > > When did other people get promoted on Voyager? (I could well have missed it, but I don’t remember it happening, aside from Paris getting busted down and then re-instated.) Tuvok got promoted–in part, I always thought, because his situation was confusing from the get-go. He wore lieutenant commander’s pips for about the first half season, but was always addressed as _Lieutenant_. Eventually they corrected the costuming mistake, then gave him back the extra half-pip and the rank, though it was obviously impossible for his position to change in any meaningful way. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/47 "2010-05-14T14:55:25Z")
To be fair TOS at least in the early episodes had a lot of people in coveralls and various working outfits doing maintenance and repairs in the corridors. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/48 "2010-05-14T16:12:36Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > As regards promotion schedule - what about long lived species like Vulcans sevring with humans in Starfleet. Do they serve twice as long at a given rank or do they have to make up higher and higher ranks to keep promoting 'em to? 🙂 This is an interesting question - Tuvok had been in Starfleet about 22 years (admittedly with a hiatus in between commissions) but he had been a lecturer at the Academy previous to his ending up on Voyager. You’d think he’d be further up than a Lieutenant Commander after 22 years! ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/49 "2010-05-14T16:17:21Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Am I the only one missing the obvious? > > **Picard** > > Seven+ years as Captain of the Flagship of the Federation. Apparently a world class negotiator and diplomat, dealing with culture new and familiar. Trusted by the Klingon High Council. Savior of the Federation’s ass on numerous occasions. > > Yet seven+ years as Captain. He should have be an Admiral and part of the general staff and making policy long since. To leave him in his role as Captain is to waste talent. His ship ran aground. The fact that he retained command is, itself, a miracle. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/50 "2010-05-14T17:02:43Z")
I thought the Riker Syndrome was going to be about actors growing beards so they’d look less pudgey. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/51 "2010-05-14T17:14:16Z")
Any show that includes high school kids and lasts years, from “Saved by the bell” to “90210”. Sometimes you end up with kids older than the teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/52 "2010-05-14T17:14:57Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Am I the only one missing the obvious? > > **Picard** > > Seven+ years as Captain of the Flagship of the Federation. Apparently a world class negotiator and diplomat, dealing with culture new and familiar. Trusted by the Klingon High Council. Savior of the Federation’s ass on numerous occasions. > > Yet seven+ years as Captain. He should have be an Admiral and part of the general staff and making policy long since. To leave him in his role as Captain is to waste talent. > [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > His ship ran aground. The fact that he retained command is, itself, a miracle. Well, in Picard’s defense, he wasn’t even on the _Enterprise_ at the time and the ship’s counselor was the one flying the thing. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/53 "2010-05-14T17:22:35Z")
As long as we’re all picking on Star Trek, what about Scotty? He was absolutely brilliant with a warp engine, but although he was promoted to captain, he was always a ship’s engineer. By the time he retired/was lost in an infinite transporter loop, he should have been working on the design of new-generation engines, or at the Academy teaching engineering classes. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/54 "2010-05-14T17:37:26Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Well, in Picard’s defense, he wasn’t even on the _Enterprise_ at the time and the ship’s counselor was the one flying the thing. Absolutely does not matter. The Captain is responsible for everything that goes on with his/her ship. If Troi wasn’t up to snuff, she had no buisness standing bridge watch. If a father put his 9 year old behind the whell of a car, and then tried to claim that the child had passed his drivers courses that the child is the one at fault, that aint gonna fly. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/55 "2010-05-14T17:57:54Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Well, in Picard’s defense, he wasn’t even on the _Enterprise_ at the time and the ship’s counselor was the one flying the thing. So you’re offering that his ship ran aground after he abandoned his post as his defense? Let me know how that works out. ---
**Author:** ![Lone\_Star\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecd19e/32.png) [@Lone\_Star\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lone_Star_Blue)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/56 "2010-05-14T18:07:44Z")
Riker staying on as a commander during the run of the show was one thing – though it seems that they were offering him a captaincy pretty quickly, as he’d only been a commander for about three years as of Best of Both Worlds. But the movies make this untenable. Fifteen years? The command crew of the Enterprise-D stuck together for _15_ years? With no promotions for _ANYONE_ during the last seven of those years? It was one thing in the original series, when the Enterprise was a training vessel, all the non-command track officers had peaked at the commander rank, and, frankly, Starfleet kinda just put them on the Enterprise 'cause they were all such pains in the ass. But the TNG crew was still in the “prime” of their careers. In the seven years between “All Good Things” and “Nemesis” Starfleet never… promoted Geordi to commander? … assigned Data as a first officer to another ship? … offered Riker a command he’d actually take? … made Picard an admiral or ambassador or whatnot? … court martialed Counselor Troi for crashing the Enterprise-D and summarily executed her? It strains credulity to the breaking point, the way the movie series presumed a state of absolute stasis for all the characters between films. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/57 "2010-05-14T18:12:12Z")
> [@Lone\_Star\_Blue](#): > > In the seven years between “All Good Things” and “Nemesis” Starfleet never… \ … court martialed Counselor Troi for crashing the Enterprise-D and summarily executed her?. She’s too cute to execute. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/58 "2010-05-14T18:17:04Z")
> [@Lone\_Star\_Blue](#): > > Riker staying on as a commander during the run of the show was one thing – though it seems that they were offering him a captaincy pretty quickly, as he’d only been a commander for about three years as of Best of Both Worlds. But the movies make this untenable. I could buy Riker being a second officer on the Enterprise for eight years if in fact he turned a command down. After all, 1. It’s not just any ship, it’s the Federation’s premier vessel and a huge freakin’ battleship (though not a “flagship,” as it’s stupidly described), and being 2IC on Enterprise is arguably a more prestigious job than being captain of USS Peice of Shit. IF you then throw in Riker’s unwillingness to move off the ship to the irritation of Starfleet’s career planning department - which is a perfectly reasonable characterization to throw in, I know lots of people who are like that - it’s believable. 2. Who says eight years is necessarily a long time in a particular role in Starfleet? Careers in Starfleet seem to last a long time. One would presume lifespan and useful career length are a lot longer in the 23rd century, too. If you’ve got 50 years to make Admiral, what’s the rush? You could learn a hell of a lot as first officer on Enterprise. But when they start getting through the movies, and nobody is going anywhere - well, that does blow past credulity. Fifteen years and NOBODY was promoted or moved anywhere? Except Worf, who keeps on having reasons to come back (and immediately replaces whatever schlub had his job)? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/59 "2010-05-14T18:39:57Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > So you’re offering that his ship ran aground after he abandoned his post as his defense? > > Let me know how that works out. In “The Enemy Below,” the movie that the TOS episode “Balance of Terror” is based on, Captain Robert Mitchum smashes his destroyer into a German sub, crippling it and winning the engagement. He didn’t seem worried about the consequences. I suspect rules are a bit relaxed in war time, and considering that there was a planet at risk, this would have counted as wartime. As for Picard, it was established that Commodores can captain ships. If Commodores outrank Captains - and Kirk acted as if Decker outranked him for the most part, Picard should have been promoted to that rank. Maybe the historical example of Admiral Kirk made StarFleet less willing to force good Captains out of the chair until they were ready to leave. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/60 "2010-05-14T18:46:04Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > …As for Picard, it was established that Commodores can captain ships. If Commodores outrank Captains - and Kirk acted as if Decker outranked him for the most part, Picard should have been promoted to that rank. Maybe the historical example of Admiral Kirk made StarFleet less willing to force good Captains out of the chair until they were ready to leave. Only TOS had commodores; afterwards Starfleet seems to have abandoned the rank. **Battlestar Galactica** had the same problems with promotions that ST: VOY did. Kara Thrace was only promoted when Cain made her Pegasus’s CAG, Adama was promoted (to Fleet Admiral) because Roslin wanted to make sure that _nobody_ (other than herself) could outrank him), and Lee got a promotion when we was made Pegasus’s XO, another one when he was made CO, but after he crashed the ship and went back to being CAG he was demoted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326.md?page=4)