# The 'Commander Riker' Syndrome... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 13, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326 "2010-05-13T17:54:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/81 "2010-05-15T15:54:44Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > [US Navy officer ranks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy#Commissioned_officer)are: > Ensign > Lieutenant Junior Grade > Lieutenant > Lieutenant Commander > Commander > Captain > Five separate admiral ranks > This corresponds 2nd lieutenant, 1st lieutenant, captain, major, lieutenant colonel, colonel, and the various generals. Thanks. I didn’t know the Navy still had this rank. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/82 "2010-05-15T17:08:49Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > This actually might be supported by the movies…in TNG, Picard was supposed to have picked Riker out of a selection of candidates for his first officer when he took command of the Enterprise—a brand new ship on it’s shakedown cruise. In his last movie, Picard was merely assigned a replacement first officer, apparently without ever even _talking_ to him. I think Picard may have fallen out of favor with starfleet…a sad end for a fine officer. ☹ I’m afraid I didn’t see the last movie. But I remember now that in Star Trek: First Contact, the movie began with Picard being frustrated at being assigned to a distant sideshow frontier while the main battle was already underway with the Borg near Earth, a sign that Starfleet didn’t have confidence in him. The fact that he eventually defied his orders and went back to save the day was all well and good, but maybe also yet one more embarassment to Starfleet Command. So yeah, he clearly wasn’t ever going to get his admiral’s stripes (bars? little filled in collar circles?). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/83 "2010-05-15T20:35:13Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > (bars? little filled in collar circles?). Starfleet and the British Army both call them “pips.” ---
**Author:** ![Lone\_Star\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecd19e/32.png) [@Lone\_Star\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lone_Star_Blue)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/84 "2010-05-15T21:54:52Z")
I don’t think it was so much that Picard had fallen out of favor as the replacement first officer died suddenly and he needed one post-haste. Though why he didn’t simply promote Worf to commander and ask him to be his exec (presuming that Worf was no longer an ambassador, which wasn’t referenced in the movie) is beyond me. Nemesis was horrible. Such a terrible swan-song for such a fine cast. ---
**Author:** ![FordTaurusSHO94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f07891/32.png) [@FordTaurusSHO94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordTaurusSHO94)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/85 "2010-05-15T22:00:22Z")
It was bad because about a quarter of the way in, it got too serious and dark and never tried to get fun again. Troi gets raped, Data gets killed, the E nearly gets destroyed. It just never lightened up. It did have my favorite space battle of all 11 movies though. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/86 "2010-05-15T22:06:23Z")
> [@Lone\_Star\_Blue](#): > > I don’t think it was so much that Picard had fallen out of favor as the replacement first officer died suddenly and he needed one post-haste. Though why he didn’t simply promote Worf to commander and ask him to be his exec (presuming that Worf was no longer an ambassador, which wasn’t referenced in the movie) is beyond me. I can’t explain Worf’s situation at all. I took his change of career at the end of DS9 to stem from the fact that he had utterly fucked up his career by his actions shortly before Jadzia died, when he deliberately and consciously fucked up a mission to save her life. Sisko is explicit in saying that Worf is only spared a court-martial because they don’t want the publicity, but he’ll never get his own command. I’d not be surprised if a note had been appended to his file forbidding further promotion. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/87 "2010-05-15T22:33:19Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I’m afraid I didn’t see the last movie. But I remember now that in Star Trek: First Contact, the movie began with Picard being frustrated at being assigned to a distant sideshow frontier while the main battle was already underway with the Borg near Earth, a sign that Starfleet didn’t have confidence in him. Except this is directly contradicted by the two part episode “Descent” where we meet Lore and his band of Borg. Starfleet put Picard in direct command of a taskforce assigned to attack and destroy the Borg they’d encountered. So if they thought he couldn’t be trusted around the Borg, why did Starfleet think that given that they’d already put him in a position where they had trusted him and it had turned out okay? The answer: because the plot said so. Weak. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/88 "2010-05-15T23:13:34Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Oh I believe it, a vengeful Ferengi used the same method some decades later according to Next Gen. The only problem is that “warp-boosted” transport has about the same odds as flipping a coin for your safe arrival. The actual idea of the movie is that, by the time of Spock Prime and Nero (which is 2387, 17 years after “Bloodlines”, the Ferengi episode you reference), Admiral Scott had figured out a way to do it safely. Scotty at the time of the movie (2258) had never successfully pulled it off. And I’m pretty sure that, even after seeing Spock Prime put in the formula, he won’t remember it well enough to use it with confidence. But it’s likely he’ll perfect it sooner in the new timeline. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/89 "2010-05-15T23:25:10Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Except this is directly contradicted by the two part episode “Descent” where we meet Lore and his band of Borg. Starfleet put Picard in direct command of a taskforce assigned to attack and destroy the Borg they’d encountered. So if they thought he couldn’t be trusted around the Borg, why did Starfleet think that given that they’d already put him in a position where they had trusted him and it had turned out okay? > > The answer: because the plot said so. Weak. All I can come up with is the people in charge being upset when he doesn’t give Hugh that virus. And although things turned out okay the next time they meet Hugh, remember that these were Borg that were not in contact with the collective. Perhaps people like Admiral Nechayev, who didn’t trust Picard not to put his own feelings in front of fighting the Borg, were in charge. (And note that they were right, as Picard act like a vengeful captain Ahab later, due to his desire to hurt the Borg, no matter what the cost.) But you’d think politics would be less important during a full-scale invasion like that. Sure, don’t put him in charge, maybe even make him come later. But to leave the most powerful ship in the fleet doing menial duty is asinine. I wonder if there wasn’t another, unstated reason. ETA: I almost forgot: Tasha Yar was a lieutenant. The idea of a yeoman seems to have been retired by Next Gen. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/90 "2010-05-15T23:27:25Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Perhaps people like Admiral Nechayev, who didn’t trust Picard not to put his own feelings in front of fighting the Borg, were in charge. (And note that they were right, as Picard act like a vengeful captain Ahab later, due to his desire to hurt the Borg, no matter what the cost.) Except that Admiral Nechayev was the one who assigned him the taskforce in Descent, soooooooooo… ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/91 "2010-05-15T23:38:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Tasha Yar was a lieutenant. The idea of a yeoman seems to have been retired by Next Gen. Gah. Should have bitten the bullet and made a third post: According to [Memory Alpha](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Yeoman), Yeoman is not a rank, but a title. It seems to be more like a Captain’s secretary–someone who handles the paper work and administrative tasks so the captain can stay on the bridge. Lieutenant Yar never did anything like that, so I doubt she was a Yeoman. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/92 "2010-05-15T23:41:08Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Except that Admiral Nechayev was the one who assigned him the taskforce in Descent, soooooooooo… Hmm. Why did she reprimand him so much, treating him like he wasn’t good enough to help with the Borg? Maybe the admiral was one of the few people pulling for him, and even she thought he made a mistake. The only good reason I can come up with besides that is that the Enterprise-E had not been tested, and they were afraid to use it. And Picard fell on a little bit of disfavor for allowing the previous ship to be wrecked. But you’d still think they’d keep the ship nearby, just in case they needed it. ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Clark\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_K)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/93 "2010-05-16T06:21:53Z")
> [@Lone\_Star\_Blue](#): > > Fifteen years? The command crew of the Enterprise-D stuck together for _15_ years? With no promotions for _ANYONE_ during the last seven of those years? It was one thing in the original series, when the Enterprise was a training vessel, all the non-command track officers had peaked at the commander rank, and, frankly, Starfleet kinda just put them on the Enterprise 'cause they were all such pains in the ass. But the TNG crew was still in the “prime” of their careers. > > In the seven years between “All Good Things” and “Nemesis” Starfleet never… promoted Geordi to commander? … assigned Data as a first officer to another ship? … offered Riker a command he’d actually take? … made Picard an admiral or ambassador or whatnot? … court martialed Counselor Troi for crashing the Enterprise-D and summarily executed her? > > It strains credulity to the breaking point, the way the movie series presumed a state of absolute stasis for all the characters between films. I agree with your basic point. I handwave it away by telling myself that Starfleet has adopted a system of setting up command teams that often end up working together for years. They stay together as a unit instead of having people transfer in and out, willy nilly, whenever Starfleet needs a new first officer on the USS Generic. ---
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/94 "2010-05-16T21:25:29Z")
With regards to Picard, it’s worth remembering that just as much as Riker refused promotion, he may have done the same (at least once the movies kicked in). Don’t forget he has a conversation with Kirk in _Generations_ that ran like this: > [@](#): > > **Kirk:** Captain of the Enterprise, huh? > > **Picard:** That’s right. > > **Kirk:** Close to retirement? > > **Picard:** I’m not planning on it. > > **Kirk:** Well let me tell you something. Don’t! Don’t let them promote you. Don’t let them transfer you. Don’t let them do _anything_ that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you’re there… you can make a difference. Having a Star Fleet legend telling you never to let them promote you away from the Enterprise (in any of its guises) is gonna be the kind of thing that sticks in your mind. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/95 "2010-05-16T22:48:07Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Gah. Should have bitten the bullet and made a third post: > > According to [Memory Alpha](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Yeoman), Yeoman is not a rank, but a title. It seems to be more like a Captain’s secretary–someone who handles the paper work and administrative tasks so the captain can stay on the bridge. > > Lieutenant Yar never did anything like that, so I doubt she was a Yeoman. [Yeoman is a functional title (not rank) for some enlisted ratings (noncoms) in the U.S. Navy.](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjob1/a/yn.htm) _Star Trek_ is based on the assumption that a ship is a ship and a spacegoing “navy” will have the same ranks and traditions as a wet navy. To me, it seems more likely that if we ever have a spacegoing military force, the Space Force will be hived off from the Air Force as the Air Force was hived off from the Army, and, like the Air Force, it will use Army-derived ranks, etc. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/96 "2010-05-16T23:13:49Z")
Picard would have, ney, should have had desk duty forced on him - he was assimilated, captured and tortured by the Cardassians, conspired with grave robbers, went against starfleet regs - not to mention direct orders - on so many occasions its not funny - plus, he never dissassembled or atleast turned off the android crew member that kept stealing his ship and impersonating him. It’s a wonder he wasn’t reporting to ensign Wesley Crusher for chrissakes. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/97 "2010-05-16T23:31:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Yeoman is a functional title (not rank) for some enlisted ratings (noncoms) in the U.S. Navy.](http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjob1/a/yn.htm) > > _Star Trek_ is based on the assumption that a ship is a ship and a spacegoing “navy” will have the same ranks and traditions as a wet navy. To me, it seems more likely that if we ever have a spacegoing military force, the Space Force will be hived off from the Air Force as the Air Force was hived off from the Army, and, like the Air Force, it will use Army-derived ranks, etc. That wouldn’t surprise me. Heinlein, of course, wrote his stuff assuming a wet navy tradition. I think Clarke took a poke at it in _The Sands of Mars_ when the passenger realized that the spaceship cannot be run like a wet navy vessel and especially not a 18th/19th century sailing ship. There is simply too much training and specialization involved. I figure it’d look more like the Prometheus et al in the Stargate universe, with the Air Force running the show, at least until, as you said, a space command is hived off. Of course, with the show you have the in-universe argument that the Stargate is a USAF program and thus all developments based on the Stargate program is under the control of the USAF. I bet the Navy would be pissed off about it, too, but unfortunately I don’t think such a conflict was ever brought up in the show. Too bad, because it’d probably make a good episode. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/98 "2010-05-16T23:49:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The only good reason I can come up with besides that is that the Enterprise-E had not been tested, and they were afraid to use it. And Picard fell on a little bit of disfavor for allowing the previous ship to be wrecked. But you’d still think they’d keep the ship nearby, just in case they needed it. After what happened at Wolf 359, maybe they wanted to have one ship **left** if worst came to worst. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/99 "2010-05-17T03:16:41Z")
Everyone’s forgetting that Riker _was_ a captain, and Picard an admiral, in “[Future Imperfect](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Future_Imperfect_%28episode%29).” Sure, it was a hallucination, but it ought to count for their service records. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326/100 "2010-05-17T03:17:59Z")
The easy answer is that someone else (likely the Admiral in charge) wanted the command and the credit for the victory over the Borg and Wolf 359. Not that ‘Johnny On The Spot’ Picard. Organization wise, you can’t rely on one man to resolve every issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-commander-riker-syndrome/539326.md?page=6)